Help! Puppy issues!

[Hypancistrus]

So my mom bought a westie puppy a little over a week ago. She is having some issues with him that I think really need to be addressed ASAP.

Here are the issues.

1. He is biting. Not just play nips, but aggressive bites. Twice in the past few days he has gotten skin pretty good. Once when a bone was being taken away, he got my mom's finger and drew blood. And again tonight when Tara was holding him so that some excess BM could be removed from his fur, he nipped Tara on the arm....not enough to draw blood...but enough to leave a little mark through the shirt.

When he did this, Tara scruffed him, yelled no, and then after he was cleaned, laid him on his back on the floor while leaning over him and held him until he lay still. She did this 3 times in a row before releasing him. I was horrified, but Tara's parents have raised Doberman's for years and this is how they have trained their Dobie pups to not be aggressive/dominant towards people.

2. Food aggression. He was guarding food, especially when other dogs were around. My mom has been handfeeding and taking away food. He is not reacting to this at all unless there is another dog present. (no other dogs at his residence) This seems to be working.

3. My mom had some past dogs that were aggressive, including one she had to rehome because he bit a neighbor and it was threatened that she would have to turn him over to the authorities. In fear she rehomed him to a country estate. He was always wonderful with us, his immediate family, but very aggressive towards strangers. Because of this past incident, she is very afraid of having another issue- almost to the point of being catatonic. I am beginning to feel that she is being OVERLY passive in her approach (not to mention coddling him and worrying to death over him) She does not wish to yell, or scruff, or lay him down... or lay a hand on him. She read that will make him more aggressive. She is using the "whine like you are hurt (cause you ARE) and go away so he will seek you out" technique. I don't think this will work on a dog that, at 12 weeks, already seems very dominant.

Long story short, does anyone have any suggestions? She will not take direct word from me or my GF well...but links provided on the internet are somehow God-like, so any pertinent training links or words of advice would be stellar.

Also...if she just plain insists on being the "hippie trainer" is there anything we can do to help even though we do not live with her? (she does have him in puppy class but it doesn't start until the end of March)

Thanks gang! I am hoping for good suggestion to keep this adorable little mite from turning into a monster!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

So my mom bought a westie puppy a little over a week ago. She is having some issues with him that I think really need to be addressed ASAP.

Here are the issues.

1. He is biting. Not just play nips, but aggressive bites. Twice in the past few days he has gotten skin pretty good. Once when a bone was being taken away, he got my mom's finger and drew blood. And again tonight when Tara was holding him so that some excess BM could be removed from his fur, he nipped Tara on the arm....not enough to draw blood...but enough to leave a little mark through the shirt.

When he did this, Tara scruffed him, yelled no, and then after he was cleaned, laid him on his back on the floor while leaning over him and held him until he lay still. She did this 3 times in a row before releasing him. I was horrified, but Tara's parents have raised Doberman's for years and this is how they have trained their Dobie pups to not be aggressive/dominant towards people.

2. Food aggression. He was guarding food, especially when other dogs were around. My mom has been handfeeding and taking away food. He is not reacting to this at all unless there is another dog present. (no other dogs at his residence) This seems to be working.

3. My mom had some past dogs that were aggressive, including one she had to rehome because he bit a neighbor and it was threatened that she would have to turn him over to the authorities. In fear she rehomed him to a country estate. He was always wonderful with us, his immediate family, but very aggressive towards strangers. Because of this past incident, she is very afraid of having another issue- almost to the point of being catatonic. I am beginning to feel that she is being OVERLY passive in her approach (not to mention coddling him and worrying to death over him) She does not wish to yell, or scruff, or lay him down... or lay a hand on him. She read that will make him more aggressive. She is using the "whine like you are hurt (cause you ARE) and go away so he will seek you out" technique. I don't think this will work on a dog that, at 12 weeks, already seems very dominant.

Long story short, does anyone have any suggestions? She will not take direct word from me or my GF well...but links provided on the internet are somehow God-like, so any pertinent training links or words of advice would be stellar.

Also...if she just plain insists on being the "hippie trainer" is there anything we can do to help even though we do not live with her? (she does have him in puppy class but it doesn't start until the end of March)

Thanks gang! I am hoping for good suggestion to keep this adorable little mite from turning into a monster!

Hi there,

I am a professional dog trainer and behavior consultant so I figured I would respond I don't think you mentioned how old the puppy is, but in the pic it looks like a young puppy. It sounds like he is just resource guarding from other dogs, not from your mom right? He should absolutely not be fed in the presence of other dogs while working through this. Otherwise he will continue to practice the behavior. I recommend the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson it is ALL about resource guarding it is a very small, easy read. You can get it at Welcome to Dogwise.com - Dog Books Handfeeding can be helpful but be careful about taking the food away because if he is guarding and it keeps being taken away you will be confirming his fears that you ARE out to take his food.

Please, please, please do not allow anyone to grab your puppy and put him on his back like that. This is extremely dangerous. It will NOT teach this puppy anything except that people are unsafe, untrustworthy and to hold on harder and fight harder the next time. I don't care what kind of dogs they have or what they have been told, this is not appropriate to do to a puppy or any dog. Dominance is NOT a character trait, it means priority access to resources and usually has NOTHING to do with behavioral issues we see in dogs and you can't "teach a dog not to be dominant", it just doesn't work that way. When people talk about dominance they are assuming motivation and intent, and you can't do that. You have no idea what he is thinking, so just look at his behavior and figure out a way to modify that. What needs to happen is you need to desensitize the puppy to gentle handling, grooming and having food taken away.

You can start by touching his back and then giving him a treat. Touching it again and giving a treat. Watch his body language if he is stiff he is not comfortable. Once you can easily touch his back, run your hand down his side, then give him a treat. Do this on both sides until he is wiggly and comfortable with it. Then do the front legs, the back legs, the tummy and so on. If you go slow, meaning that you don't move to the next body part too fast, you will be desensitizing him in a way that keeps you both safe and comfortable. You NEVER push him and you always work below threshold. If he goes to bite, he was pushed too far and you need to work more at the earlier step. I go into this a little in my book, but probably not enough, so I would I recommend the book Raising a Behaviorally Healthy Puppy by Suzanne Hetts who is a PhD.

I hope this helps some. You might want to help her find a qualified trainer. Go to www.apdt.com to find a certified pet dog trainer.

 

[Greycloud]

Ahh terriers, you gotta luv em! This little guy sounds like a real handful. Mom definitely needs to get alpha with this guy or she is going to be in trouble. Turning puppy on it's back and scruffing works wih some pups. Others get very frightened and growl and snap out of fear. It is difficult to find the middle ground. Again I suggest you PM Braveheartdogs. She has helped me with a fearful dog. It might take a day or so but she will get back to you. I am sure she will have suggestions and links you can look into. I wish you luck with this little guy and hope things calm down before they are irreversible.

 

[Greycloud]

There she is!! She posted the same time I did.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Vicki, thanks so much for responding. I'm a member of several other forums, too, and yours is the first REALLY helpful response. I am getting conflicting info from all ends... she really does need to seek out a good trainer, but the local facilities won't take him until he is 4 months old (not until March 27th) He just turned 12 weeks last Friday (will be 13 this Friday).

Others have said she should not have gotten a westie... it's a little too late now. I initially suggested a Golden Retriever or a lab after her scotty died in the fall (age 14) but she insists that they are "too big for her" and that she needs a small dog... so the dog is already here... not a whole lot we can do, but I want her to be successful with it.

I am not sure what to think... my mother and father in law have raised Doberman's for years. They were the ones who gave the advice about rolling over on the back. They said it works well for them and that it is the way to go.

I have a difficult time with this. I was upset with my GF when she scruffed him earlier. I have always thought to myself... I wouldn't hit my human children (even if I really, really wanted to) so why would I hit my dog?? I realize that rolling them over isn't hitting them. I know that this is how dogs teach each other, and how their dam taught them. I even saw our 13 year old whippet snap at him and knock him off his feet when he jumped on her flank... doing it myself does make me uncomfortable. But there's a hundred schools of thought... I don't know what advice to tell her. I am going to copy what you wrote, though, Vicki, and send it to her. One way or the other she will have to make her own decision.

Someone on another forum reccomended NILIF. But I saw some negatives on that too. Ugh!!

 

[ortegah]

Good advice already has been given I will say though that Westies are big dogs in a small body. While they are small they are stocky and strong and aren't quite like having a chihuahua My Mom and Dad have one and she's a great dog! My father took her to an awesome obedience trainer and she has always been in the top of the classes. I highly recommend getting him into a puppy class for socialization and training.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I just ordered the book you reccomended, Vicki. It should be here by weeks end.

I can't say enough how scared we all are. I want so badly for this dog to work out for her. She has been through more crap with dogs in the past two years than I could mention, starting with having to give up her 3 year old Scotty, then losing her 6 year old Scotty to bladder cancer in Fall '08, and then Tessy the 14 year old this past fall. That's three dogs lost in less than two years. She's terrified of screwing up and failing at this. I can see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice, and I am terrified for her. (I am tearing up as I write this)

My GF, like I said, grew up with Dobermans. Her parents have 12 dogs currently, two of which are Dobies and all their dogs are honestly among the best behaved dogs with people that I've ever met. But I have reservations with training that way... using fear. She is irrirtated with me and thinks I am wrong for thinking the use of fear and intimidation is not great.... but there you have it. It's a personal predisposition. It might work... but it makes me feel yucky inside. I am a HS teacher and when I really yell at my students because they are being idiots and not listening and I've just had it... they do stop talking, and they do pay attention... but I don't like the way it makes me feel. It drains me. It's not fun. I don't like it.

I just want this to be okay for my mom. I want her to be successful. I will give her the book when it comes. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Hypancistrus]

While they are small they are stocky and strong and aren't quite like having a chihuahua .

We don't have the chihuahua yet, so this is good practice for the end of March!

 

[Allessa]

Wow im actually shocked at this!! Ive always heard Westies to be very sweet good natured dogs. Laceys mom is a full westie and is the sweetest dog EVER. Never would bite even if ud hurt her, fortunately Lacey is the same way. The only problem i ever had with Lacey as a puppy was stubborness and spite lol.

I hope someone comes around to help give you advice! Ive never dealt with an aggressive puppy. Food aggression, once. But as time went on, and he realized no one was stealing his food..it went away.

 

[ortegah]

We don't have the chihuahua yet, so this is good practice for the end of March!

Oh I didn't even know you were getting a chihuahua!

 

[thejoie]

I always train the gentle bite by simulating what another puppy would do in that situation. I YELP, literally as high pitched and loud as I can and immediately stop paying attention to the puppy.
At first I yelp at all hard bites, then progress to the level where I feel comfortable. Some people do a no mouthing rule. I don't mind a little mouthing. Everyone has a different perception on play biting.

I also believe in desensitization. Peaches, my French Bulldog was a bit crazy with food when she was a puppy. Never with us but with the other dogs. Immediately I started to panic at the possibility of her becoming food aggressive.

First I would sit with her and feed her meals from my hand. Then once we did this for a while and I was able to give her the food and take the food away without any instances we moved on. I next started to feed Peaches with the dogs nearby. At first she was very guarded and then she slowly started relaxing. We then I would hand feed them from my hand and she'd have to wait to get hers and let the other dogs get theirs.
It was a LONG progress.
We did the same thing with treats and toys.
She's still a bit toy obsessed.. but for the most part- she does SO well compared to when she was a puppy!

Not every dog responds the same way to trainin

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki, thanks so much for responding. I'm a member of several other forums, too, and yours is the first REALLY helpful response. I am getting conflicting info from all ends... she really does need to seek out a good trainer, but the local facilities won't take him until he is 4 months old (not until March 27th) He just turned 12 weeks last Friday (will be 13 this Friday).

Others have said she should not have gotten a westie... it's a little too late now. I initially suggested a Golden Retriever or a lab after her scotty died in the fall (age 14) but she insists that they are "too big for her" and that she needs a small dog... so the dog is already here... not a whole lot we can do, but I want her to be successful with it.

I am not sure what to think... my mother and father in law have raised Doberman's for years. They were the ones who gave the advice about rolling over on the back. They said it works well for them and that it is the way to go.

I have a difficult time with this. I was upset with my GF when she scruffed him earlier. I have always thought to myself... I wouldn't hit my human children (even if I really, really wanted to) so why would I hit my dog?? I realize that rolling them over isn't hitting them. I know that this is how dogs teach each other, and how their dam taught them. I even saw our 13 year old whippet snap at him and knock him off his feet when he jumped on her flank... doing it myself does make me uncomfortable. But there's a hundred schools of thought... I don't know what advice to tell her. I am going to copy what you wrote, though, Vicki, and send it to her. One way or the other she will have to make her own decision.

Someone on another forum reccomended NILIF. But I saw some negatives on that too. Ugh!!

I don't think that saying she shouldn't gotten the puppy is helpful. She has the puppy so let's find some solutions.

I know that people will sometimes recommend scruffing a dog, putting them on their backs and doing other things that they feel have worked for them in the past. Sometimes doing those things suppresses the behavior because that is what punishment does, it suppresses behavior. Remember though that punishment NEVER teaches behavior it only suppresses it. You can just as easily teach him what you DO want him to do. Those things (scruffing him, pushing him on his back) are punishing and aversive and it's true it might suppress the behavior but at what cost? The dog has not learned how to actually feel comfortable with the trigger (having it's rear combed, or eating with a dog nearby for instance) it has just learned that it will be hurt if it does those things, but the dog is still uncomfortable. I KNOW that people have been doing these things for years, we all did them 20 years ago but now we know that it isn't necessary and is, in fact, pretty detrimental. There is no such thing as "being an alpha" with a dog, unless you gave birth to it. Alpha is a wolf pack term, NOT a domestic dog term. Dogs do not form packs (not even wild dogs). A wolf pack is a family of wolves, the alpha wolves are the parents. By the way, alpha wolves do not run around putting other wolves on their backs (the other wolf would roll on his own as a sign of submission) they also don't use aggression to solve problems. A wolf pack would be extremely weak if it was full of aggression, fighting and injuries. It just doesn't work that way. And besides, dogs are not wolves. Dogs are no closer to wolves in DNA than we are to chimpanzees. You can read from the top people in dog training and canine behavior Patricia McConnell, PhD, Karen Overall, PhD, Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller and the wolf experts like David Mech and Ray Coppinger, they will all say dogs are not wolves, stop doing this stuff to them.

I KNOW there is conflicting information. This is because a lot of people give out information when they really are not trained, credentialed, or educated in dog behavior, learning theory, ethology or canine body language. I don't hate them for it necessarily, I just would be careful about doing things that are dangerous and fracture dog/human relationships.

If this puppy feels defensive and is then shaked by his scruff and put on his back, what do you think he has learned? Do you think he has learned to feel more comfortable with someone touching his rear? Do you think he has learned that he is safe around food and should trust people around it? Do you think he will feel that people are safe and trustworthy in general? Would we treat our friends this way? What about our birds? What about family members? I am writing all this because this is an EXTREMELY critical time in this puppies life. He only gets on puppyhood and you only get one chance to build a strong, healthy relationship with him. What are the best relationships built on? Trust, communication and mutual respect, never intimidation, force or fear. Now is your chance to make him or break him. I have known people who have severely damaged dogs by doing these things. Sometimes, they are never able to rebuild the relationship. I have been able to desensitize some puppies in a single day. Why would we not want to do it with compassion and respect for the animal?

Sorry, I am rambling. I'll stop now. I hope this helps some. I am happy to provide resources and do anything I can to help you get this puppy on his way and on the right track.

 

[GigQQgles]

This is a great thread. I have a 1 1/2 year old doxie, Max. Sunday I took him to my parents house for a family dinner. My little neice and nephews were there. Max has not seen them since he was a little puppy because my one nephew has an allergy to dogs. Since my nephew who is almost 3 is starting to out-grow his allergies this was a test to his dog allergy. Well when I brought Max over I had him on his leash. The kids started coming toward him and he barked and lunged at them as to bite them. I have never had a dog that was aggresive toward anyone especially kids. I immediately had my mom get me a cheese stick (this was Max's training treat through puppy school). I had my nephew slowly come up to Max while giving him cheese as he was behaving. I then moved to the kids giving Max treats. Actually they basically dropped it in front of him but to Max anybody is good that is feeding him! By the end of the evening Max was off his leash and behaving really well with the kids. Granted I was near by at all times since my one nephew likes to push buttons. At the end of the evening my nephew did corner Max and he snapped and barked but Max was between my Mom and I so he did not get bit. It was a lesson to my nephew as well that he can not do that. I will continue to work on desensitization. So staying calm and rewarding really works.

Oh...as far as my nephew's allergy to dogs goes. He would have been ok except he decided to play dog and carry Max's toys in his mouth. He broke out where the toy touched his face. I think it was the slobber soaked cloth ball!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

This is a great thread. I have a 1 1/2 year old doxie, Max. Sunday I took him to my parents house for a family dinner. My little neice and nephews were there. Max has not seen them since he was a little puppy because my one nephew has an allergy to dogs. Since my nephew who is almost 3 is starting to out-grow his allergies this was a test to his dog allergy. Well when I brought Max over I had him on his leash. The kids started coming toward him and he barked and lunged at them as to bite them. I have never had a dog that was aggresive toward anyone especially kids. I immediately had my mom get me a cheese stick (this was Max's training treat through puppy school). I had my nephew slowly come up to Max while giving him cheese as he was behaving. I then moved to the kids giving Max treats. Actually they basically dropped it in front of him but to Max anybody is good that is feeding him! By the end of the evening Max was off his leash and behaving really well with the kids. Granted I was near by at all times since my one nephew likes to push buttons. At the end of the evening my nephew did corner Max and he snapped and barked but Max was between my Mom and I so he did not get bit. It was a lesson to my nephew as well that he can not do that. I will continue to work on desensitization. So staying calm and rewarding really works.

Oh...as far as my nephew's allergy to dogs goes. He would have been ok except he decided to play dog and carry Max's toys in his mouth. He broke out where the toy touched his face. I think it was the slobber soaked cloth ball!

Really nice job Carla. You did great with Max! You didn't try and punish him into anything, you allowed him to learn to feel comfortable and relaxed around the kids. Good job!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I always train the gentle bite by simulating what another puppy would do in that situation. I YELP, literally as high pitched and loud as I can and immediately stop paying attention to the puppy.
At first I yelp at all hard bites, then progress to the level where I feel comfortable. Some people do a no mouthing rule. I don't mind a little mouthing. Everyone has a different perception on play biting.

I also believe in desensitization. Peaches, my French Bulldog was a bit crazy with food when she was a puppy. Never with us but with the other dogs. Immediately I started to panic at the possibility of her becoming food aggressive.

First I would sit with her and feed her meals from my hand. Then once we did this for a while and I was able to give her the food and take the food away without any instances we moved on. I next started to feed Peaches with the dogs nearby. At first she was very guarded and then she slowly started relaxing. We then I would hand feed them from my hand and she'd have to wait to get hers and let the other dogs get theirs.
It was a LONG progress.
We did the same thing with treats and toys.
She's still a bit toy obsessed.. but for the most part- she does SO well compared to when she was a puppy!

Not every dog responds the same way to trainin

This is great to hear Joanna. Actually, learning theory doesn't change from dog to dog or from species to species, so pretty much every animal will respond to this if the trainer is skilled at what they are doing.

I remember the first time I reached for a toy near Fooey my pekingese, he lunged and snarled at my hand. I went and got a clicker and treats and started with just lifting my hand and clicking and treating no response, then lifting my hand and moving it an inch and so on. I built it up to reaching for the toy and lifting it up. We did just a couple of sessions and he learned to feel comfortable with me reaching toys. He never did it again. He also used to resource guard my lap. I would be holding him and he would lunge at one of my other dogs when they walked by and I would very calmly say "too bad for you" and set him on the floor. I did this over and over. The consequence for resource guarding my lap is that you lose it. The behavior went away completely.

 

[Sharpie]

I just want to say that Vicki is right on- he needs to be taught what you DO want him to do, not just scared and overpowered if he does something that is on the list of things it would be better for him not to do. BOTH my dogs came from homes that failed in this regard, one outright ignored the pup, the other 'dominated', and both dogs have permanent issues because of it. They are much better with the serious training they've received since they came to me, but solidifying that early trust and socialization is vital and no amount of training later can really replace it IMO. Show him that people are caring, consistent, and fair, and that people are worth following, trusting and looking to for leadership.

 

[1parakeet]

Wow. You have recieved some really good advice! And I learned a thing or two myself.

Since you have recieved very nice advice, I don't really have any.

I really do think that fear is not a good way to train a dog. I think that all learning experiences should be relatively positive ones for dogs. If it is possible, at least.

I'm sure that with the right training, this little westie will live up to his true westie name of being a friendly little guy.

Great advice everyone! And goodluck with the pup!

 

[rocabird]

It is so nice to see all the positive training advice! I have a 3 year old Springer Spaniel that displayed behaviors like this. Her owners worked with a trainer who gave them the advice to be heavy handed and alpha and it made things much worse. I got her when they called the vet hospital I worked at to have her put to sleep. Fortunately, the vet I worked for wouldn't put an 8 month old dog that showed no signs of aggression when we spayed her 2 months before to sleep and instead suggested they sign her over to the vet hospital and we would find a home for her. She ended up coming home and staying with me. She still has some issues but those she has have greatly decreased because she no longer feels she needs to protect herself.

You mentioned NILIF. Like every training method there are different levels that people take it to. I've used things like having my Jack Russells sit for the food bowl and the door with good results even as pups. This site has a pretty good explanantion- http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

One thing I have found with my terriers is that anything that raises the excitement level like whining made things worse. For them, getting up and leaving the room worked because all the fun and attention stopped.

Clicker training is perfect for terriers. Maybe your mom can find a class to help get things off on the right foot.

 

[Sharpie]

Can I ask what issues people have seen with NILIF? I've used it, at least so far as I understand it, and can't see how there's any force or fear involved. Dog wants X, so does Y (where Y is some behavior they already know how to do), then gets X. If they choose not to do Y, they loose the chance for X in the immediate future... It's actually why my dogs 'beg' for attention by coming over and sitting or laying next to me, which is way better than them spazzing out all over. Sorry if this is off topic!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I also use Nothing In Life is Free. I ask for a known behavior for all food rewards, for lots of play rewards and sometimes even for attention depending on the dog. Done properly, NILIF is not aversive to the dog. I'm NOT talking about deprivation at all, I am talking about having the dog say please by complying before I hand things over to him or her.