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Having trouble with a new baby Timneh Grey - Please help!

Barnaby Rose

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Hi guys.. so we have had Oliver now for about a month, and have just finished out his 30 day quarantine period, have had all blood work, cultures, CBC and polyoma tests back negative for ANYTHING, so we have had both Oliver (the baby grey), and Emma (3 year old female Eclectus), in the same room for about a week now.

All in all and considering, things are going very well. They are kept separate obviously, but even during their out of cage time they seem to be tolerating each other very well, playing separate and almost enjoying each other's company a little!

Anyway, we are having one 'problem'. Oliver is 'baby squeaking', almost whimpering/crying, or squeaking etc, CONSTANTLY. Like when I say constantly, he is being extremely audible more so than he is quiet. Pretty typically, when he hears us awake in the morning (even after we have let him out of his cage) for about an hour, ANYTIME my wife is in or around the room at all, when I am assuming he is hungry (but not for the food we are providing), we have tried EVERYTHING, mixed, separate, warmed up a little and cold.. different grains/vegetables even dried and etc, the only things he is interested in are treats, our pellets or seeds. I am holding my ground (on the advice of my vet), and I am absolutely not giving in, and continuing to offer a variety of fresh foods every day.
The WORST by far is around bedtime/night time. He is like really, really really loud. We put him into his cage to sleep, shut all the blinds and turn all the lights off, and he literally screams for about 45 minutes straight in the dark (which we ignore completely, again on the advice of my vet), and then eventually quiets down until he hears us in the morning around 9 am.
To be perfectly honest it really doesn't bother my wife or I in the slightest, but I am definitely concerned for him.
Any advice, experience or help at all would be so appreciated I can't even explain, my vet is about out of ideas and it isn't getting any better. If anyone has any other questions don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks so much,

B
 

Tiel Feathers

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Is he eating enough? He could be crying for comfort. I also think some handfeeding might help. He's still adjusting and needs reassurance. Was he with other babies when he was at the store/breeders?
 

rocky'smom

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ok, this sounds like baby that has regressed a little bit. find out what he was being hand fed with? how much he was eating at each feeding? then try that. baby birds when handfed and move into a new situation tend to regress back to needing a comfort feeding or 2 or three. you may want to get gram scale and weigh him daily, if he is not eating well he most likely is losing weight. you may have to do this for several days to weeks. once you find out the formula and how many cc's of food he was getting, then match it for a few days along with offering things like mashed sweet potatoes, oatmeal that is well cooked, cream of wheat or rice cereal with human baby veggies/ fruits mixed in. (try to find low iron cereals) you can try feeding the above from a plastic spoon with the sides bent upward like a V.. make sure the food is warm to about 104 degrees F and stays warm as you feed it. otherwise you could get sour, slow moving crop. hopefully this well help Oliver to adjust to his new home.
 

Barnaby Rose

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Thanks for replying guys, yes I think that he may be hungry as well.. I have just been told implicitly by my vet and actually the shop/breeder as well, to enforce the Whole Foods we are offering and not to regress into handfeeding at all - you guys are in disagreement?
Oliver was born in March, making him about 7 months old. He was fully weaned (and fledged for that matter), and was eating entirely on his own for 2.5 weeks on their bean/vegetable mix twice a day before he came home.
Yes he was with his brothers and sisters, but was separated fairly early I believe. He does pick at his food a little... and yes has definitely lost some weight, but apparently not enough to be concerned with yet, I have had him checked out at the vet twice since bringing him home (I am a worry wart). If it helps, he weighs just under 300 grams.
What do you think?
 

rocky'smom

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yes totally disagree. here is an example that I use for people getting new puppies. b/4 you bring a new pup home, take a old rug or blanket that the pup is going to sleep on in your new home. let it stay with mom and brothers and sisters for a few days. DO NOT wash it bring it home and put it in the crate with new puppy. it has all of mom's and brothers & sisters smells on it. it a comfort to being in new home. Oliver had brothers and sisters to compete with for food. now he doesn't, at 7 months old in new situation he is frighten there is nobody to compete with. and they do regress. JMHO , I think your vet in ninny as is the breeder if they honestly believe that 2.5 weeks of eating on his own is enough. please get some handfeeding formula and try giving him a comfort feeding.
 

Lodah

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yes totally disagree.
I am in total agreement also! Some vets and breeders are hard nosed to the point of the poor bird suffering for no real reason! Wonderful Post!

In a similar fashion, letting a human baby cry itself to sleep in total exhaustion when it has problems is another wonderful new age idea! What a load of crap!
 

TWR

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I totally disagree too. I think abundance weaning is the best for the bird. The bird chooses when he no longer wants it.

My AV went so far to say that it's great to keep up for as long as the bird will tolerate a spoon feed. If an adult bird is happy to take food off a spoon, it means you have an easy way to medicate if you need to do so down the track.
 

SpecialistElbru

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Search Force weening vs abundant weening!

Force weening is something invented by the emergent bird breeding industry. It goes against millions of years of genetic adaptation. These birds have 99.9% the same genes as there wild counterpart. Imagine in the wild a toddler bird that just learns how to fly, It of course does not know how to find food. In the wild there are no boles of parrot food lying around. The birds genes are telling him/her to depend on the parent for food. In the wild the ability to chew and eat food are very different from the ability to find food and identify what is good to eat and not good to eat. In the wild with grays this is a process that takes more than a year of learning.

Abundant weening is an attempt to form a bridge between millions of years genetic adaption and shaping these creatures to be viable companion animals.

Here are two in depth discussions from another forum I am on.

New owner of 7 month old baby Goffin's | Behavior & Behavior Problems | Real Cockatoo Facts!

How not to spoil my Too.. | General Cockatoo Discussion | Real Cockatoo Facts!

Here is a bent spoon picture.


 

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SpecialistElbru

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SpecialistElbru from mytoos said:
Research has shown that even when the bird is physically capable of feeding itself 100% (from human provided foods), the act of being fed is essential to a parrots emotional well being. In the wild with long lived parrots, it has been observed that the parents will continue to feed and the offspring even after they are capable of foraging for themselves. Often, it is the offspring that will continually turn-down beak-to-beak feeding when the parents are offering it.
 

Barnaby Rose

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Ok so a little update - I think you guys are absolutely right. This morning I mashed up some cooked sweet potato and heat it up to 105 degrees in my microwave, i got him out of his cage and held him in one hand while I fed him with the other and he SCARFFED it down, literally like a starving child. He started rocking his head back and forth almost like he was nodding or something and was taking literally mouthfuls at a time. So I think we have an answer, here's the thing though - as soon as I put the food down, and placed him on the perch right above it he picked at it maybe 3 or 4 times and then wanted nothing to do with it. This is typical for a handfeeding baby I am assuming? Does this mean that each and every time he needs to eat I am going to have to do it by hand the whole time, until he decides he is ready to eat by himself or...? I don't mind at all if that is what it is, but obviously I have a day job, ,if that is the case he will Only be able to eat in the morning before I leave, and in the evening when I get home , assuming he won't eat by himself or when the food is in his cage. One thing I did notice though that seems odd to me.. he has NO problem eating any amount of pellets, safflower/sunflower seeds, or banana chips/other treats ALL by himself, as many as I put in there, even out of his foraging system. This is originally why I was hesitant to believe he was actually regressing, and more so being stubborn. Thoughts?
To be perfectly honest, this would be the 3rd or 4th thing the vet has not only been wrong about, but has led me in almost the complete opposite direction, and for what we are paying each time, I am pretty sick of it.
Thanks again for all the help guys it is actually invaluable
B
 

SpecialistElbru

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Be VERY CAREFUL with a microwave, they are prone to hot-spots. 105 is the upper limit of temperature once you add just 5 degrees to any piece of food you are in the RED ZONE for crop burns. If you must microwave mash, 1 microwave, 2 mix thoroughly, 3, put a lid on the dish, 4 Wait three or five minutes, 5 mix again, 6 take the temp before feeding. If it cools too much during the wait wrap the covered dish with a towel during the wait. If your bird will accept the mash at 99 or 100 degrees it offers an extra level of protection against crop burns.
 

Holiday

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Regression is common, and IMO there's no convincing rationale for not comfort feeding. I have a 13 week old that I hand feed and a 13 year old who occasionally gets a formula treat :)
 

SpecialistElbru

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This is typical for a handfeeding baby I am assuming? Does this mean that each and every time he needs to eat I am going to have to do it by hand the whole time, until he decides he is ready to eat by himself or...? I don't mind at all if that is what it is, but obviously I have a day job,
I am not blaming you, I am blaming the parrot breeding industry. Getting a parrot is a huge commitment. It make me angry that someone would sell a toddler parrot without informing the new owner of feeding warm mash from a spoon, and other commitments. In this situation I feel it is the sellers responsibility to tell the buyer to be prepared to use up a chunk of vacation days when your new bird comes home.


Does this mean that each and every time he needs to eat I am going to have to do it by hand the whole time, until he decides he is ready to eat by himself or...? I don't mind at all if that is what it is, but obviously I have a day job, ,if that is the case he will Only be able to eat in the morning before I leave, and in the evening when I get home , assuming he won't eat by himself or when the food is in his cage. One thing I did notice though that seems odd to me..
The only to describe this is in terms of "loosing self-confidence". When an intelligent creature looses self-confidence he/she feels that he/she can not do things that he/she would normally be able to do. Hopefully your mash feeding the bird will give him self-confidence and this self-confidence will allow him to eat on his own.

For now, it seams you will have to feed before work, leave a full bowl of food in the cage when you leave for work and then hand feed when you return from work. Be sure to note how much your bird eats from the bowl (or just throws it out). It will be rough for you and again I only blame the seller for not warning you that this was definitely a distinct possibility


he has NO problem eating any amount of pellets, safflower/sunflower seeds, or banana chips/other treats ALL by himself, as many as I put in there, even out of his foraging system.
Your bird is a wild animal, not a domestic animal. His genes make him compatible with living in the wild. A bowl of parrot food is not a natural part of living in the wild. As strange as it sounds, you bird will have to learn to eat without your assistance at a much earlier age that he would in the wild HE WILL. I can't give you a time-line for how long it will take. Birds are all individuals and forcing a bird onto a time-line is another artificial process that runs counter to the bird's genes.


This is originally why I was hesitant to believe he was actually regressing, and more so being stubborn. Thoughts?
There is a problem with the language, the terminology of regressing was developed by the breeders to make this sound non-normal. Parrots have 99.9% of there wild genes being parent feed is a part of the birds emotional well being. If a 4 year old human is never hugged or given affection he/she is not being stubborn when he/she "acts out".


Barnaby Rose said:
To be perfectly honest, this would be the 3rd or 4th thing the vet has not only been wrong about, but has led me in almost the complete opposite direction, and for what we are paying each time, I am pretty sick of it.
If possible I would look for a new vet!
 

SpecialistElbru

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An example of progress

SariStar85@mytoos 11/06/14 said:
When I brought Emma home <snip> she displayed some unexpected feeding behaviors. She would crouch down, rock, and make a very throaty sound, like a whine or cry. It reminded me of the posture you might see from a baby bird when the parent comes back with food to regurgitate and feed. Initially, I would just scratch her head, stay there, and talk to her, believing this behavior was ONLY because she was nervous to be in a new and strange environment. She is 6 months old

After reading through the forums here, I now believe this is a sign she was improperly weaned by the "breeder", and I use that term loosely. It makes me so upset, now knowing what I have read on here, that you would force a young bird to eat in a manner

I read more on abundance weaning and I am trying to embrace that concept. I'm not sure if there has been too much damage done already by the breeder improperly weaning her, but I just want to give her the best chance of developing confidence and security.

<snip>

I automatically offer her food in the mornings, when I get up, and then when I get home from work and at night, before bed. I don't wait for her to start with the crying or rocking, I just prepare a warm mash with Harrison's pellets, and come over to her and offer it. I am happy to say she readily accepts it every time.


SariStar85@mytoos 01/05/15 said:
She will still demonstrate some of the "feed me" behaviors, primarily in the mornings (squatting, fluffing out her feathers and making the throaty sound), but she is now eating out of a bowl that is hooked onto her jungle gym.
<snip>
I started one morning with offering her the food from the spoon and then gradually transitioning to her going to the bowl to eat it. Now, I come over, place the food in the bowl, and she immediately goes over and eats her fill, and doesn't display any of the "feed me" behaviors afterwards. I still feed her the mash twice a day (from Harrison's) which she greatly prefers over the pellets.
<snip>
I've given her a few spoon feedings here and there, primarily when the behavior seemed "out of routine" for her (i.e. she usually acts like this in the mornings, but then would exhibit the "feed me" behavior randomly, for example in the middle of the day), thinking that, as stated before, it is more of a stress reliever and reassurance to her to know that food will be provided...so I provide it!
 

Hankmacaw

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Regression is common, and IMO there's no convincing rationale for not comfort feeding. I have a 13 week old that I hand feed and a 13 year old who occasionally gets a formula treat :)
My 34 yo GW macaw loved to be hand fed. I believe that because he had been badly abused before he came to me, it was a comforting thing for him. My female GW didn't wean until she ws 7 1/2 months old and she still gets a hand feeding now and then. I know of a B&G who was way over a year old before he weaned. The last I heard, Danita's Newman, as far as I know is still getting some hand feedings.

I agree - start looking for a new vet. If you can tell us the area that you live in someone may be able to give you a recommendation.
 

rocky'smom

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instead of the microwave, try a egg poacher; the old fashioned kind with hot water in bottom and the stainless steel holder for the egg. (yup I have handfed baby budgies). you can scoop the food from the holder. you will need to space those feedings out by watching how fast his crop empties. I am NOT sure how many cc's a grey will take food wise but I know that others can help with that. @Greycloud @ncGreyBirdLady anybody else.
Personal opinion here kick that vet in the butt.
 
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SpecialistElbru

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If Oliver is only eating the cooked sweet potato, this may fill him up, but it will not provide proper nutrition by itself. If Oliver is not eating on his own, you will need to soak the TOPS pellets in water and then mash those up. (warning keep refrigerated and make fresh daily will spoil quickly). There are some companies that make a pre-mashed parrot food, I can't seam to find the one I was looking for perhaps someone here can point you to it.
 
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