Handling conure after two weeks?

[Fuzzy]

I see loads of progress!!!! You said on Oct 14th that:

... she still gets a little spooked when I move closer to the cage/enter the room

And now you can:

once I open the door she starts chirping and screaming

and touch her belly!!!

Really don't try to compare her to your clients' conures - as you said they had been hand fed, so already at ease with human hands. It's hugely rewarding working with a bird that is afraid of humans. I have an Amazon called Ollie who I eventually was able to scritch his head feathers after 6 months. It happened that he used to swing a bell and put his head underneath for a self skritch. So as soon as he was happy with my hand in his cage, I used to unhook the bell and gently swing it above him catching his head feathers. Gradually I made the chain shorter and shorter until I was scratching him with the bell only, and then my fingers. Then I found I could skritch him with other small toys. Look out for gifts like this that you can use. Ollie too was cage bound - he didn't come out of his cage for 1.5 years!

The conversations you are having with her are excellent!!! I used to have those sort of conversations with Ollie. It gets you communicating, plus if she is answering you back, you know that it is reinforcing for her. She "likes" your voice... you maybe able to use your voice as a reinforcer (reward) for other behaviours. I used to have such fun with Ollie at this point. He would vocalize and display to me, so I would pretend to creep up to his cage, zigzagging so that I didn't directly approach him (which might have worried him), and hide badly behind plant pots etc so that he could still see me. He used to love this game.

What is her name, by the way? If you open her cage door, what has she got to step on? Is it possible to fix a small perch on the open door so that she can climb out on it when it is open?

Stepping up is really a very complicated task to ask. There are many behaviours involved and a lot of trust. I worked on Ollie stepping up on a hand held perch. But first I worked on him taking a treat from my fingers so that I could use that as a reinforcer for the step up. Does she take food from your fingers yet? Or if you hold a piece of millet is she happy to eat from it whilst you hold it?

 

[Skyperch]

I think it's because she was supposedly hand-fed as well, so it made me a bit more discouraged with that.

Her name is Marley, and she seems to react in some way to her name. She has a small perch attached to the door (it's been there probably a month) but she has yet to use it, even when the cage is closed. She does not take food from my fingers. The only time I see her eating any type of treat is when I drop it in her bowl and walk away.

 

[Monica]

Have you set up a treat cup next to that perch?

When the cage door is closed, have you dropped treats into that cup for her to make the perch itself more rewarding?

 

[Skyperch]

No, I haven't put the treat cup near the perch. I may try doing that.

 

[Skyperch]

Three weeks later, and unfortunately she is still not taking treats from me or getting any closer :/ Tbh she doesn't even seem terribly interested when I put them in the bowl. She'll eat them, but she's in no rush. She still won't go anywhere near my hand or fingers.

 

[Monica]

Maybe you need to try experimenting with different treats to figure out what ones she really loves.

 

[Fuzzy]

Monica has a good idea there. If you expand the content of her diet you might find something she absolutely loves.

Have you tried tying a length of millet spray to her cage bars? Everyone loves that here - even the Amazons! If she decides she likes it you can start offering it through the bars and then gradually shorten the length so she gets progressively closer to your fingers. With long or big pieces of food (like a slice of apple or a length of carrot or kale leaf, etc, etc) she doesn’t have to get too close to your fingers. But get her eating them from her food bowl first or clipping them to the side of the cage so she gets used to them. If she likes something enough then you can start to ask her to work for it.

Make sure you are doing everything to keep her body language relaxed. Anything you do that spooks her, worries her etc will be pairing yourself with an aversive and therefore be a set back in your relationship. Even offering her food from your hand when she’s not ready to take it can be an aversive.

I used to go to great lengths to keep Ollie’s body language relaxed. He used to spook at eye contact so I avoided eye contact for quite a while (months!). He used to panic when I approached his cage so I made myself smaller by getting on the floor and crawling to him so that I could clean him out or put food bowls in. I used negative reinforcement to approach him at normal height which was reinforcing his relaxed body language by removing an aversive (me). So I’d start from the other side of the room, take a step forward and reinforce/reward his relaxed body language by taking half a step back. And so on until I could eventually reach his cage. It took weeks of doing just a few steps now and again throughout the day to be able to stand next to his cage.

It can take a long time to gain a birds trust and every bird is different as to length of time. I’m sure if you look back and compare her behaviour to when she first arrived you will be able to see progress. Try keeping a journal or diary of her achievements. Then you will see them in black and white when you are feeling stuck. Make a list of things that she responds to in a positive way... different foods, talking, singing, dancing, a special toy she particularly likes, a favourite perch, maybe you sitting at your computer taking no notice of her, etc. All this is important info some of which you may be able to use as reinforcers now or in the future.

 

[Skyperch]

I do put millet spray in her cage, and she does eat it every day or so, but she doesn't seem particularly excited about it.

Honestly, we do many things that suggest she is comfortable with me. She'll make noises, we'll head-bob, and play games where I poke my head in and out of the doorway, which she seems to find hilarious. The big hurdle is honestly the touching/handling. She still gets somewhat nervous when I get too close, but when I can't really motivate her with food, I don't know how to get over that big step of being able to touch/hold her. She doesn't even seem to get the concept of stepping up, it appears.

 

[Monica]

Went over and re-read the thread again. Do you have Marley eating the pellets now? Or is Marley still getting seeds in her diet?

 

[Fuzzy]

If she “gets nervous” when you are too close you won’t be able to touch her. So work on keeping her body language relaxed when you get close. When she is comfortable with you close then you can work on her taking food from you.

Love that she finds it hilarious when you poke your head in and out of the doorway! More silliness like this will surely gain her trust in you.

Stepping up is a huge thing to ask of a bird. It takes a lot of trust and often a lot of training in the form of shaping (breaking the goal behaviour down into tiny manageable steps/approximations).

 

[Skyperch]

She's getting a lot less seeds in her diet now. I still have a bit of the food left so I'd like to still use the rest, but for the most part she's getting majority pellets. :3

I think it's just difficult when she doesn't seem to be a very food-motivated bird. My coworker said that perhaps because she was still young when I got her, she might still be trying to learn how to "be a bird" and therefore might find stepping up onto a finger confusing and daunting. Interestingly, though, last week she flew out of the cage towards me while my mother was sitting in the chair beside her. She only does this rarely, and never with other people in the room with me. When I went to get her, she stepped up a lot quicker than she ever had before, so maybe it was her fear of my mother that made her step up to me more willingly? I'm not too sure.

 

[Skyperch]

Update since we're over a month later:
I am still no closer to having her step up, unfortunately. She likes making noises at me and playing with her toys, but the few times she's flown out of her cage she doesn't seem to know how to properly step up. She takes very little interest in treats (I have tried both bagged treats like nutriberries as well as some fruits). I haven't made any further progress in regards to that so I'm unsure what to do now.

 

[Fuzzy]

@Skyperch, what foods does she pick out of the food bowls first? Those items will be her favourites. You may not have found that wonder food quite yet! When you do, remove them from her food bowls and save them for giving by hand only - that way they become even more valuable. Will she take some favoured items from you just before breakfast when she is hungriest? Try sharing some food with her.

You say she plays with her toys. You could also use access to a favourite toy as a reinforcer... even as a lure to start with. A lure to entice her to step up to reach the toy. But break it down into manageable steps - work on getting her to touch the toy with you holding it first. I wonder if she would find stepping up on a hand held perch (that is similar to a perch in her cage) safer than a hand?

Look out for any reinforcers you can use. It doesn't have to be food. Food is just a good one for an untamed bird because it is an unlearned/primary reinforcer - all birds have to eat. And now from your last post, we know she finds some toys reinforcing. Maybe she finds coming out of her cage reinforcing? My Pionus does, so I used it to teach him to step up on a folded rope perch every morning when I took him out of his night cage.

 

[Skyperch]

@Skyperch, what foods does she pick out of the food bowls first? Those items will be her favourites. You may not have found that wonder food quite yet! When you do, remove them from her food bowls and save them for giving by hand only - that way they become even more valuable. Will she take some favoured items from you just before breakfast when she is hungriest? Try sharing some food with her.

You say she plays with her toys. You could also use access to a favourite toy as a reinforcer... even as a lure to start with. A lure to entice her to step up to reach the toy. But break it down into manageable steps - work on getting her to touch the toy with you holding it first. I wonder if she would find stepping up on a hand held perch (that is similar to a perch in her cage) safer than a hand?

Look out for any reinforcers you can use. It doesn't have to be food. Food is just a good one for an untamed bird because it is an unlearned/primary reinforcer - all birds have to eat. And now from your last post, we know she finds some toys reinforcing. Maybe she finds coming out of her cage reinforcing? My Pionus does, so I used it to teach him to step up on a folded rope perch every morning when I took him out of his night cage.

I'm honestly having trouble figuring out the food, because she hasn't shown any special interest in anything in particular. I am also in the process of switching her over to another food.

She views my hand as something to stay away from. She won't move when I go to grab something within her cage or give her more food/millet, but she doesn't like things coming near her (whether it be my hand, a perch, etc). She does not come out of her cage at all, since I cannot get her to step up. She has perches both on the door itself and near the door, and the door is wide open whenever I am home, so she always has access to the outside.