For those of you good at math...a question about breeding pairs and new blood?

[StandUpand]

I'm curious if anyone knows hypothetically about how long it would take a flock of 6 pairs to need new blood to be introduced? What about 8 pairs? None of my birds at this point are related so we have 8 pairs, 4 of each sex. So assuming that each pair breeds and produces babies and I keep one baby from each clutch, how long would it take to need to introduce new birds that are not the offspring of my current flock?

 

[finchly]

What species?

 

[StandUpand]

Green cheek conures. I have regular, Turquoise, cinnamon, yellow sided, and pineapples.

 

[StandUpand]

What species?

We also have a pair of sun conures, one jenday, and a Sunday. I know I have a male and female sun, but I'm unsure of the sex on the other two and they are still under a year now. I have a blue crown female as well, but I didn't think she could pair with any of them, that I would need another blue crown for her...

 

[Momof3litt]

Not sure there's a reliable way to go about this mathematically, it depends too much on the outcomes of your breeding pairs and your breeding goals. For example, a male wild type and female pineapple can produce at least 10 different possible outcomes base on THIS. Which of those offspring might you want to keep? Are you working towards breeding particular colour mutations or do you want to stick with the range you already have? What if you have multiple clutches or all males or all females, would you still keep some?

 

[Laurie]

Are you pairing randomly or according to color. Do you know the mutations and possible splits of each parent bird or is it all mixed up?

 

[StandUpand]

Are you pairing randomly or according to color. Do you know the mutations and possible splits of each parent bird or is it all mixed up?

The birds were paired previously to me becomeing caregiver for them. I don't know anything about them other then what is visable at this point. The turquoise is my favorite and I would be trying to get more of those but I'm still researching about all the mutations and their genetics

 

[StandUpand]

Are you pairing randomly or according to color. Do you know the mutations and possible splits of each parent bird or is it all mixed up?

Currently there is a pair of pineapples, a yellow sided and a turquoise paired, a yellow sided and a pinapple paired, and I have a single cinnamon and a single regular green cheek. I believe the cinnamon to be female and the regular a male..

 

[Laurie]

Currently there is a pair of pineapples, a yellow sided and a turquoise paired, a yellow sided and a pineapple paired, and I have a single cinnamon and a single regular green cheek. I believe the cinnamon to be female and the regular a male..

I don't understand green cheek color mutation genetics and how the birds should be paired to get certain colors so you might start there. The point I was getting to is that are you assuming you can pair any bird with any other bird or do you have various color lines going that you will not want to intermingle? Also are all your birds unrelated. The short answer is that three unrelated pairs will allow you to breed without bringing in new blood. You just keep pairing the babies with a family they are not related too.

Do you know for a fact that all the birds you have are unrelated. If you do not know the history of the birds then it is all just a bunch of guessing. Unfortunately, these days that is how most people breed but it is infinitely better to breed bird who you know the history of.

Like I said I am not familiar with green cheeks but there are definately books out there that talk about budgie genetics you could learn the basics there and just convert it over to the green cheek colors.

I raise caiques but I am not working with color mutations. I have two species and so I do not breed them together.

I have four unrelated White-bellied caiques 2 boys and 2 girls. They form 2 pairs and produce a second generation. I can pair up the 2nd generation taking one bird from each family line. But that's it, after that I would need to bring in additional birds if I wanted to make more pairs from any of the 3rd generation babies.

I am not sure I can really answer your question but I can give you this little info to help you in your research.

 

[Wardy]

If my maths is right if you bread your inital 6 pairs succesfully you could then breed 36 times using birds from these clutches however this would mean using various birds to breed on multiple occasions with other partners.

 

[Destiny]

With two breeding pairs, you could breed each pair and then breed the offspring of each pair together. Or breed the offspring from one pairing to one of the adult birds from the other pairing, since they are unrelated. You might even stretch it out one more breeding cycle by breeding back to the other side of the unrelated pair. After that, you should add new blood, because all your birds are too closely related.

Example of possible unique breeding pairs:

Pair 1 (Male A and Female B) -> Offspring AB
Pair 2 (Male C and Female D) -> Offspring CD

Pair 3 (Male AB and Female CD) -> Offspring ABCD

Pair 4 (Male A and Female CD) -> Offspring ACD
Pair 5 (Male C and Female AB) -> Offspring ABC
Pair 6 (Male AB and Female D) -> Offspring ABD
Pair 7 (Male CD and Female B) -> Offspring BCD

Pair 8 (Male A and Female BCD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 9 (Male C and Female ABD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 10 (Male ACD and Female B) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 11 (Male ABC and Female D) -> Offspring ABCD

With just two starting pairs, you can get a decent number of unique pairings before you start to veer into inbreeding territory ... assuming all four birds are completely unrelated.

If you double the number of birds to four pairs, the number of possible combinations also goes way up, since you have even more unrelated breeding lines to work with. However, you must keep really good records and hope to get the right birds from each breeding pair to make this work. In practice, you will likely have significantly fewer viable matches, since you may get no female offspring, no offspring that are of suitable quality to breed, or be unable to keep the offspring from a pair for some other reason. For example, one of your breeding birds might die young or be infertile or show signs of genetic issues that you don't want to pass on. And not all pairings will successfully bond, especially if you are trying to get the same parrot to switch mates multiple times. If you are sticking with one mate for each bird, that would significantly cut down on the possible breeding pairs and mean that you would need new blood much sooner.

Lastly, if you have limited information regarding your birds' true parentage, you might already have closely related birds especially if they were acquired from the same location. This is difficult to account for, other than by bringing in new blood from proven breeding lines.

 

[Wardy]

With two breeding pairs, you could breed each pair and then breed the offspring of each pair together. Or breed the offspring from one pairing to one of the adult birds from the other pairing, since they are unrelated. You might even stretch it out one more breeding cycle by breeding back to the other side of the unrelated pair. After that, you should add new blood, because all your birds are too closely related.

Example of possible unique breeding pairs:

Pair 1 (Male A and Female B) -> Offspring AB
Pair 2 (Male C and Female D) -> Offspring CD

Pair 3 (Male AB and Female CD) -> Offspring ABCD

Pair 4 (Male A and Female CD) -> Offspring ACD
Pair 5 (Male C and Female AB) -> Offspring ABC
Pair 6 (Male AB and Female D) -> Offspring ABD
Pair 7 (Male CD and Female B) -> Offspring BCD

Pair 8 (Male A and Female BCD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 9 (Male C and Female ABD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 10 (Male ACD and Female B) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 11 (Male ABC and Female D) -> Offspring ABCD

With just two starting pairs, you can get a decent number of unique pairings before you start to veer into inbreeding territory ... assuming all four birds are completely unrelated.

If you double the number of birds to four pairs, the number of possible combinations also goes way up, since you have even more unrelated breeding lines to work with. However, you must keep really good records and hope to get the right birds from each breeding pair to make this work. In practice, you will likely have significantly fewer viable matches, since you may get no female offspring, no offspring that are of suitable quality to breed, or be unable to keep the offspring from a pair for some other reason. For example, one of your breeding birds might die young or be infertile or show signs of genetic issues that you don't want to pass on. And not all pairings will successfully bond, especially if you are trying to get the same parrot to switch mates multiple times. If you are sticking with one mate for each bird, that would significantly cut down on the possible breeding pairs and mean that you would need new blood much sooner.

Lastly, if you have limited information regarding your birds' true parentage, you might already have closely related birds especially if they were acquired from the same location. This is difficult to account for, other than by bringing in new blood from proven breeding lines.

My head just fell off

 

[Destiny]

My head just fell off

Now imagine what the chart would look like with eight pairs ...

This kind of stuff is why serious breeders will keep meticulous records and maintain pedigrees for all their birds. Pedigrees are really useful records when considering your breeding options and looking back over past breeding outcomes. Unfortunately, they are not super common in aviculture. At least not with most parrots, so far as I seen. Canary people get into it more, especially if they show their birds.

 

[Wardy]

Now imagine what the chart would look like with eight pairs ...

This kind of stuff is why serious breeders will keep meticulous records and maintain pedigrees for all their birds. Pedigrees are really useful records when considering your breeding options and looking back over past breeding outcomes. Unfortunately, they are not super common in aviculture. At least not with most parrots, so far as I seen. Canary people get into it more, especially if they show their birds.

Absolutely the breeder I got the girls from discussed this at length with me the numbers just went over my head though.

 

[Laurie]

With two breeding pairs, you could breed each pair and then breed the offspring of each pair together. Or breed the offspring from one pairing to one of the adult birds from the other pairing, since they are unrelated. You might even stretch it out one more breeding cycle by breeding back to the other side of the unrelated pair. After that, you should add new blood, because all your birds are too closely related.

Example of possible unique breeding pairs:

Pair 1 (Male A and Female B) -> Offspring AB
Pair 2 (Male C and Female D) -> Offspring CD

Pair 3 (Male AB and Female CD) -> Offspring ABCD

Pair 4 (Male A and Female CD) -> Offspring ACD
Pair 5 (Male C and Female AB) -> Offspring ABC
Pair 6 (Male AB and Female D) -> Offspring ABD
Pair 7 (Male CD and Female B) -> Offspring BCD

Pair 8 (Male A and Female BCD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 9 (Male C and Female ABD) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 10 (Male ACD and Female B) -> Offspring ABCD
Pair 11 (Male ABC and Female D) -> Offspring ABCD

With just two starting pairs, you can get a decent number of unique pairings before you start to veer into inbreeding territory ... assuming all four birds are completely unrelated.

If you double the number of birds to four pairs, the number of possible combinations also goes way up, since you have even more unrelated breeding lines to work with. However, you must keep really good records and hope to get the right birds from each breeding pair to make this work. In practice, you will likely have significantly fewer viable matches, since you may get no female offspring, no offspring that are of suitable quality to breed, or be unable to keep the offspring from a pair for some other reason. For example, one of your breeding birds might die young or be infertile or show signs of genetic issues that you don't want to pass on. And not all pairings will successfully bond, especially if you are trying to get the same parrot to switch mates multiple times. If you are sticking with one mate for each bird, that would significantly cut down on the possible breeding pairs and mean that you would need new blood much sooner.

Lastly, if you have limited information regarding your birds' true parentage, you might already have closely related birds especially if they were acquired from the same location. This is difficult to account for, other than by bringing in new blood from proven breeding lines.

Just to add to this that it is highly unlikely that you would be able to break up a pair and pair them with a new mate reliably and successfully. Unlike dogs and cats birds do not mate and move on they pair up for the long term and will not likely bond with a new mate if the old one is still within sight or hearing distance. Not all pairs take to one another and not all pairs will bond sufficiently to raise babies.

Not to mention how long you would have to wait for the offspring to mature and pair with an older bird. And also the distress of the birds while breaking up pairs.

Thank goodness we are speaking hypothetically