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Extremely fearful Grey after multiple vet visits, looking for advice (Sad update post #21)

Lyco1983

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Hello. My wife and I adopted a Congo Grey in July 2019, who seemed very happy and well adjusted upon bringing him home. He displayed a bit of nervous behavior at times, mostly alternating feet nail chewing, but otherwise extremely interactive, vocal and confident. Lots of whistles, emulating household noises and trying to talk. He bonded quickly to my wife and loved to engage and get scratches, as well as looking out the window and joining us around the house. We are experienced parrot owners, and have familiarity with "normal" behavior........other than the slight nervousness (at least as compared to our other grey), completely normal and happy.

Within two months of bringing him home he began showing signs of illness, long story short resulting in ~15 visits to the vet over the course of 6 months. Lots of nasal flushing, two extended hospitalizations, and probing/prodding to eventually find that he was born with genetic defects compromising both his feet and nasal passage. Over the course of the vet visits he has become extremely phobic of hands and anything that looks like a towel/blanket, and no longer engages with my wife and I. He sits quietly and fearfully in his cage hidden behind his toys, screaming and thrashing violently if either of us walk anywhere near his cage. It is an extremely delicate process just to give him fresh water and food each day. He previously stepped-up willingly any chance he got to leave his cage, including climbing to the top and calling to join my wife and I, but now any time we ask him to "step up" he immediately takes a defensive position and begins screaming. He used to love going to his tree in the living room or basement to play, and now when we manage to get him there he nervously chews his nails and quivers his wings until he is returned to his cage, screaming fearfully both directions.

The major problem is trying to clean his cage, which of course requires his removal. Any time we remove him from the cage he will jump and has lost multiple feathers thrashing around once he hits the floor. If we try to gently hold his feet to prevent jumping it makes the situation even worse. Even moving at a snails pace doesn't work. Simply put there is NO way to remove him from his cage without serious drama; we have tried everything.

We are now at a crossroads where we don't know what to do. One option is to leave him in his cage all day, gently trying to talk to him from a distance and hoping that eventually he shows a sign that he wants to join us............but with this we take the risk that he becomes even more distant and phobic, possibly leading to other behavioral problems. Another option is try to continue getting him out of his cage so that we can engage him and ensure he doesn't get bored, but with the risk that he is being over-stress and/or will hurt himself jumping and thrashing. It's a nightmare situation. We welcome any advice, and thank you in advance.
 

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I assume that he isn't afraid of sticks,if so,try targeting.There are a few nice stickies at the training court regarding that but generally it is trying to get the parrot to touch a stick for a treat.
But since he doesn't want you all close,then sit at the comfortable distance and do your own thing,and when you see that he is chilling move a bit closer but try not to make noise.Than you can try again maybe?
Since there is CORVID going on if your country is under lockdown you have plenty of time to spend with your greys.Lemme see who I can tag.

@BertAllen ?
@JLcribber ?
@Hankmacaw ?
@ncGreyBirdLady ?
@Hawk12237 ?
@Nikomania ?
 

Toy

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CAG's are noted for being nervous & on the defensive. Ours refuses to step up from in her cage or the cage door or top of cage. I have however gotten her to step up from the seed skirt. She was trained to step up on a dowel rod, but at some point that became fearful for her. If I try to get her to step up on it he attacks it. If I show her the stick she climbs down to the seed skirt & then willing steps up on my hand. Another thing you can try is offer her a treat for stepping up, or doiung aything you ask her to until she learns to trust you again. Be consistent.

I have, over the soon to be 21 years we've had her, learned that we must explain why we are approaching her cage, what we want her to do, etc. I carry her outside to an aviary in the yard in summer. She's fully flighted, so she has to be toweled. She hates towels, but if I let her get on the floor & then tell her I need to towel her to carry her oustside, She then stands still & lets me towel her. They like to think they are in full charge.
 

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Well the absolute biggest issue here is that you basically kept breaking this birds trust over a 6 month period. That's an awful long time in the birds mind to be put through that. It was a necessary evil but an evil nonetheless. Moving forward this bird may not get over it completely simply because of its intelligence (psychologically damaging). You can reasonably expect this "recovery" to take at least 6 months or longer to undo and that's only if these events stop happening.

It will take extra effort on your part to draw him out of his phobia. Absolutely nothing negative. Always move slow, announce yourself, explain what you're doing. Try to establish that communication again. It's about connecting to him again. I wish you luck. This will not be a quick or easy thing.
 

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oh the poor thing. I am not as experienced as the people that were tagged in this post. I do know that Paco my 20 year old CAG was fearful, still is sometimes. He would chomp my arm and hard when I asked him to step up. So I stopped and now bribe him with a treat. I agree with JLcribber it will take a lot of time and patience. After a year with Paco, about 3 weeks ago he will now step on my arm calmly. I stopped asking him to step up, so I pretty much went back to just talking to him softly. Since from the beginning I always tell him what I am doing ie, I'm doing laundry, Paco needs fresh water, Paco want his goodies, yum yum, I even tell him when I make the bed, read a book, go night night. I do this every day, every morning and night. I noticed that I am the one that has to be completely calm. I didn't realize it, but I must have been somewhat anxious, like having to go to work, even though I thought I was calm he could still sense that I wanted him in his cage. With the shut down I have had more time to spend with him on this issue.

I wish I had more advice, I'm sure others will chime in.

Keep us posted.

15 visits to the vet in 6 months is a lot, hugs out to you and your wife.
 

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Lyco1983

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Thank you everyone for the responses so far, they have been extremely helpful. We will definitely try all of the advice provided so far, and welcome any additional ideas.

The big question we still have is would it be better to leave him in his cage, speaking to him and spending time in that room as much as possible, with the goal of keeping his stress at a minimum? Or would it be better to "force" him to leave his cage at least once a day to ensure he is getting enrichment and not slipping further down the pit of isolation and possibly chance neglect behaviors. I know there isn't a perfect answer here, but we are definitely conflicted between trying to keep engagement with him and trying to minimize his stress. Thank you for any additional advice!
 

Snowghost

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Speaking from my experience with Paco, he was so scared the first three days, I swear he was still as a statue, I mean not even ruffle a feather. I just opened his door every day and let him decide what he wanted. My other experience was with an Amazon, she had been neglected, cage bound and even chased with a broom. I did the same thing, just let her move at her own speed.

I would start with him the same way. He has lost his confidence, he sees everything as something to fear, the probing from the vet, towels, etc. Move slow, talk in reassuring tones, I wouldn't ask him to step up. What are his favorite foods? Treats?

Question, why do you have to remove him from his cage in order to clean it?

It will take time to gain his trust back, it will take time and lots of patience.
 

Lyco1983

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Great advice. His favorite foods are warm broccoli, cauliflower or any type of potato. We have him on Zupreem pellets so a few seeds daily are also a treat. He used to take food from our hands, but now we have to slowly sneak over the drop treats into his "treat bowl", which he does actually like.

I remove him from the cage to clean it partially because when I wipe up the dried poop I don't want him breathing any of the dust, second because he has an extremely negative reaction to hands inside of the cage since the vet visits began. We can tell he is conflicted; his way of telling us he wants to be picked up is to slowly quiver his wings above his head...........he does this to signal us, but as soon as either of us move towards him it seems some defense mechanism overtakes his desire for interaction and the screaming/jumping begins. It's like he wants to engage but won't let himself, which tells me there is hope.
 

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Do not “force” anything. That is the root of the problem now. There has to be a reason For the bird to leave the cage. It must be positive like a very special treat or something. Right now anything outside that cage is perceived as fear. If it means staying in that safe space (cage) for a while so be it. I personally would never close the door of that cage ever again. I would hope he had the courage to venture out if no one was around. (This can be easily done by creating a safe place with barriers that includes that open cage).

Small steps. Patience. Choice. (Your bird has a form of learned helplessness) Greys damage psychologically as much as cockatoos. Which is a lot.
 

Toy

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Thank you everyone for the responses so far, they have been extremely helpful. We will definitely try all of the advice provided so far, and welcome any additional ideas.

The big question we still have is would it be better to leave him in his cage, speaking to him and spending time in that room as much as possible, with the goal of keeping his stress at a minimum? Or would it be better to "force" him to leave his cage at least once a day to ensure he is getting enrichment and not slipping further down the pit of isolation and possibly chance neglect behaviors. I know there isn't a perfect answer here, but we are definitely conflicted between trying to keep engagement with him and trying to minimize his stress. Thank you for any additional advice!
I wouldn't force him to do anything. Open his door every day, ask him if he wants to come out & just let him come out on his own. Talk to him, but don't get too close for now. Act silly, dance, sing, whistle, etc. Parrots love silly. Birds see our body parts different than we see their parts. Our elbows are their wings, our hands are their feet. Places your hand on your hip or waist. Move your elbow back & forth & say Bye-Bye. This is a wing wave. My B&G Macaw waves her wing & says Bye-Bye. Bob your head up & down or back & forth, sway back & forth (dance), etc. CAG's are super interlligent & will learn quickly, but they are also very stubborn, so be patient. Most CAG's are not a hands on bird, like say a Cockatoo is. I can give a quick few swipes of our CAG on her beak with my finger, then I must remove my hand or she'll nip me. I can not touch any other part of her body unless she is toweled. She does know in order to go outside she has to step up or be toweled. I can clamp my thumb over her one foot if she steps up. As I said they can be very defensive. We got our at age 6 months & she was nipping & biting when we got her.

When you go to feed & water him ask him if he's hungry & wants something to eat. Approach slowly, but do it as quickly as possible the whole time talking to him & explaining each step of what you are doing. Then walk away.

Don't force him back in his cage, let him go in even if it means he has to sit in the dark. Tell him its time for night night & turn the lights out. Eventually he'll go in. His cage needs to be his safe place. If he ends up on the floor, do not move, let him settle down first, then slowly approach him & ask him what's he doing on the floor. Let him walk about a little & then ask him if he wants to go back to his cage. Ask him to step up & slowly offer your hand & a treat. What ever you do you must be consistent with any & all training & the words & motions you use. This is how you earn his trust.

Once you earn his trust, which will take time, maybe months, & he freely steps up, take him for a slow walk around the house, touching everything as you go. The frig, chair, door, stove, etc. Tell him what each thing is & let him touch it with his beak if he wants to. This is how they learn things won't harm them. Same with food. You take a bite of something & offer him some. Later on you can set him on a counter, chair arm, etc. & just hang out.

With each step of training you do & he responds in a positive way, no matter how small, tell him good bird. Try to avoid any & all negative. You didn't say how old he is. Age & hormones can & does change how they react to everything.
 

Snowghost

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Awesome advice @Toy That is exactly what I do with Paco, and I do it every day, every morning I say the same things, tell him what I'm doing, at feeding time and at night time. I never knew about the wing/arm association. Great thought about hormones, I haven't experienced that yet.
 

Toy

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Awesome advice @Toy That is exactly what I do with Paco, and I do it every day, every morning I say the same things, tell him what I'm doing, at feeding time and at night time. I never knew about the wing/arm association. Great thought about hormones, I haven't experienced that yet.
I spent a lot of time sitting & watching & listening to our birds & learning how they each use & relate sounds & movements. I can tell if my Macaw sees a ladder out her window. We live close to a fire company with a ladder truck. She hates ladders & will sound a macaw alarm, which just about breaks your eardrums. If they have the truck out doing practice I just close the drapes until they're done. End of stress on my Macaw & my ears are happy :).

CAG's aren't as easy as say a U2 or Macaw, as far as hands on. Right now our CAG & Macaw are on top of their cages. Jengo (CAG) is saying peek-a-boo, laughing, sneezing (fake), making kissing sounds, etc. I walked over & asked her if I could have a kiss. She waddled over, bobbed her head, made kiss sounds, let me give her a quick beak rub & then let me give her a kiss on the beak. Then I walked away. That's about as much hands on as I can get with her.

My B&G Macaw was abused. It took me many months to earn her trust, but now I can do anything with her including sticking my finger in her beak & touching her tongue. However during Macaw breeding season I know to keep my distance as much as possible, because she gets very nippy. Otherwise she likes to be in the middle of everything I do. They all have their own personalities, just like we do & once we learn their likes & dislikes it makes it easier to earn their trust & work with them.
 

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Sorry to hear you are going through that. Like others said, definitely don’t force anything on the bird and don’t forcibly remove him from his cage in order to clean it.

As hard as it may seem, let him freak out inside while you clean slowly and hopefully over time he will realize he’s not being grabbed and will find a way to cope more peacefully.

I know we all want the best for our birds, but I would minimize how much time and work you’re doing inside the cage when you clean. Pile in a bunch of newspapers and just quickly reach in and grab off the top layer every day.

My CAG tends to poop in the same two places. One place is also where her food debris falls. I stack extra papers under there and remove them daily and only remove the main layers covering the entire bottom of the cage once a week before trash day. She’s in a King’s Corner cage.

Rebuilding your bird’s trust is the priority. The cage does not have to be spotless every day.

Greys can be so phobic and wary. Minimize your activity in the cage. Spend a lot of time outside the cage rebuilding trust.

Talk to him a lot and use the same phrases to give him a schedule and understanding of what’s going to happen before it does. I always tell my CAG “Good morning” when I wake up, “Time for water/food” before I swap out her dishes, “Bye, Ralphie. I’ll be back” when I leave the house, etc.

She also knows that “It’s OK” means not to worry. She repeats it to herself when something spooks her.

It’s important to build a reliable schedule and code of communication (using short phrases) with your grey so he understands what’s going to happen before it does so he won’t be as scared.


Good luck.
 
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Snowghost

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I so agree with @MnGuy Routine is essential. I felt silly doing this but now that I have read this post I guess I am on the right track. Every morning Paco wakes up with a few hoots, (no idea how he learned to hoot like an owl, but its a great way to wake up)
I do the same thing every morning, I tell him good morning, I"m opening up the curtains, turn on the fish tank, does he want to get out. Paco want breakfast? I ask him do you want goodies, yum yums, and I clank his stainless steel bowls, he has learned to associate that with his treats, especially if I wash dishes at the same time, he gets excited looking forward to food. I tell him he needs fresh water.

A little background about the water, he came to me in a filthy cage, I mean he smelled, took me two days to clean it. He had a water bottle, I guess it was used for a guinea pig? Ugg it was full of brown water, well that was the first to go. So I ended up getting a locking bowl, oh yeah fun, this guy didn't want my hands in his cage, no way any way. So I wait til he is out of his cage, I slowly would reach my hand in, telling him what I am doing the whole time. I show him the bowl and let him bite the edge, I do the same thing when I return it. After a year, I can now reach in his cage and a few times with him sitting on the perch and he will not chomp me.

I started out with bribing him with a treat, an almond, and asking him to scootch over so I can get his water bowl. Hey he can't bite with a mouth full right? Now he scoots over and I don't have to say anything.

At night time same thing, Paco want your supper? Time for goodies, yum yum. At night I turn off the fish tank, close the curtains, straighten up the covers, telling him I'm making my bed. I then tell him I'm turning off the light and count to three. He then climbs up side down and swings, and I say Paco is swinging.

Last night he was grinding his beak which was music to my ears. I do the same thing when I leave, I tell him, I'll be back, be a good boy and he happily nibbles on a treat. I give a bowl with some organic cheerios, 1 almond and Zupreem Natural pellets and he now eats the pellets. This is a parrot that ate Hartz Parrot food. Happy Dance over here!

Doesn't his cage have a pull out tray underneath so you can change the paper? I agree they usually poo in the same place, if I'm gone a long while like at work, he sits on the back perch, it's a large cement, I think its good for his nails and when he's home, he sits outside and I have paper under his door that he sits on. During the day it's in the center of his cage where his other perch is.

I hope this helps, what is your birds name? Any photos?
 
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Hello. My wife and I adopted a Congo Grey in July 2019, who seemed very happy and well adjusted upon bringing him home. He displayed a bit of nervous behavior at times, mostly alternating feet nail chewing, but otherwise extremely interactive, vocal and confident. Lots of whistles, emulating household noises and trying to talk. He bonded quickly to my wife and loved to engage and get scratches, as well as looking out the window and joining us around the house. We are experienced parrot owners, and have familiarity with "normal" behavior........other than the slight nervousness (at least as compared to our other grey), completely normal and happy.

Within two months of bringing him home he began showing signs of illness, long story short resulting in ~15 visits to the vet over the course of 6 months. Lots of nasal flushing, two extended hospitalizations, and probing/prodding to eventually find that he was born with genetic defects compromising both his feet and nasal passage. Over the course of the vet visits he has become extremely phobic of hands and anything that looks like a towel/blanket, and no longer engages with my wife and I. He sits quietly and fearfully in his cage hidden behind his toys, screaming and thrashing violently if either of us walk anywhere near his cage. It is an extremely delicate process just to give him fresh water and food each day. He previously stepped-up willingly any chance he got to leave his cage, including climbing to the top and calling to join my wife and I, but now any time we ask him to "step up" he immediately takes a defensive position and begins screaming. He used to love going to his tree in the living room or basement to play, and now when we manage to get him there he nervously chews his nails and quivers his wings until he is returned to his cage, screaming fearfully both directions.

The major problem is trying to clean his cage, which of course requires his removal. Any time we remove him from the cage he will jump and has lost multiple feathers thrashing around once he hits the floor. If we try to gently hold his feet to prevent jumping it makes the situation even worse. Even moving at a snails pace doesn't work. Simply put there is NO way to remove him from his cage without serious drama; we have tried everything.

We are now at a crossroads where we don't know what to do. One option is to leave him in his cage all day, gently trying to talk to him from a distance and hoping that eventually he shows a sign that he wants to join us............but with this we take the risk that he becomes even more distant and phobic, possibly leading to other behavioral problems. Another option is try to continue getting him out of his cage so that we can engage him and ensure he doesn't get bored, but with the risk that he is being over-stress and/or will hurt himself jumping and thrashing. It's a nightmare situation. We welcome any advice, and thank you in advance.
Hello. My wife and I adopted a Congo Grey in July 2019, who seemed very happy and well adjusted upon bringing him home. He displayed a bit of nervous behavior at times, mostly alternating feet nail chewing, but otherwise extremely interactive, vocal and confident. Lots of whistles, emulating household noises and trying to talk. He bonded quickly to my wife and loved to engage and get scratches, as well as looking out the window and joining us around the house. We are experienced parrot owners, and have familiarity with "normal" behavior........other than the slight nervousness (at least as compared to our other grey), completely normal and happy.

Within two months of bringing him home he began showing signs of illness, long story short resulting in ~15 visits to the vet over the course of 6 months. Lots of nasal flushing, two extended hospitalizations, and probing/prodding to eventually find that he was born with genetic defects compromising both his feet and nasal passage. Over the course of the vet visits he has become extremely phobic of hands and anything that looks like a towel/blanket, and no longer engages with my wife and I. He sits quietly and fearfully in his cage hidden behind his toys, screaming and thrashing violently if either of us walk anywhere near his cage. It is an extremely delicate process just to give him fresh water and food each day. He previously stepped-up willingly any chance he got to leave his cage, including climbing to the top and calling to join my wife and I, but now any time we ask him to "step up" he immediately takes a defensive position and begins screaming. He used to love going to his tree in the living room or basement to play, and now when we manage to get him there he nervously chews his nails and quivers his wings until he is returned to his cage, screaming fearfully both directions.

The major problem is trying to clean his cage, which of course requires his removal. Any time we remove him from the cage he will jump and has lost multiple feathers thrashing around once he hits the floor. If we try to gently hold his feet to prevent jumping it makes the situation even worse. Even moving at a snails pace doesn't work. Simply put there is NO way to remove him from his cage without serious drama; we have tried everything.

We are now at a crossroads where we don't know what to do. One option is to leave him in his cage all day, gently trying to talk to him from a distance and hoping that eventually he shows a sign that he wants to join us............but with this we take the risk that he becomes even more distant and phobic, possibly leading to other behavioral problems. Another option is try to continue getting him out of his cage so that we can engage him and ensure he doesn't get bored, but with the risk that he is being over-stress and/or will hurt himself jumping and thrashing. It's a nightmare situation. We welcome any advice, and thank you in advance.
Lots of good advice given here. As a former vet myself, and surgical assistant. I want to address the issue you mentioned of the numerous vet visits in 6 months and nasal flushing. 6 months of this and more, points to an allergy.
Birds are not always fond of visiting the vet.
And it becomes an issue of trust. The bird views the vet as the bad person. They get poked, proded, put under, xrayed, toweled. And think oh no, I'm not coming out of my cage to go to vet. It's a fear.
Second, the nasal flushing and feet. There are birds that will exhibit allergies, when another of same spieces will not. I'm guessing your grey is exhibiting allergies, not necessarily from food, but environmental. Irritants.
Plants, smells, pollen, cooking smells ,other pet dander for example. I once had an amazon come in with severe allergies, we had to pin point it after several visits. The bird was other wise healthy. Come to find out the person had 3 dogs that did heavy shedding. Dogs lick their hair and coat, salivia is on the hair and dander, which becomes a very irritating issue for the bird.
Third, the feet. That can be a variety of different issues. Without seeing the feet I can not honestly say. But if may suggest, keep perches especially, clean. And be aware of what you use to clean them with. Birds will step in their own poo from time to time, and it becomes irritable.
As for trust, hate to say it, but your going to have to focus on starting over from square one again. Again the advice given here in is excellent.
 
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Danita

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Aww, poor guy!
There was a lady a long time ago that went through the exact same thing. I have kept in touch with her through the years on how their grey is doing. The grey is back to itself now. It took a long time, they were all distraught. Their grey broke a bunch of wing feathers and associated their falls with the owners, imagine that. Therefore he became fearful of them.
I brought in a fearful bird last year. I have learned to watch her body language. As you approach you can see exactly when they are getting uncomfortable, stop there. If its 5 feet away or 10.
Eventually their comfort zone will decrease in size, but then it will grow again. As far as cleaning the cage, I made sure she had a good sized cage where she had a hiding place for when I put food in or change papers. I made it high and private, so she can't see me or peek around to keep an eye on me. I have zero expectations from her. After a year I still watch her body language. She is getting better, but its slow. As far as moving her around, I had a smaller cage that she liked and I would slide it up to her cage and she would crawl in to play. Then I could fuss with her big cage without freaking her out.
Have you heard of Lara Joseph? She does a lot of parrot behaviour videos, you can go to her website or FB page, lots of free videos. There is also a private group, called the Parrot Project, you pay to belong in there and she does a bit more. But if you watch all the free videos you will get a gist of what she does. Her business is called The Animal Behaviour Centre.
 

Milo

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In addition to behavior modifications, I would wholly recommend sedation for vet visits. They are very low risk and reversible, and midazolam (a very common sedative used in avian medicine) has an amnesic effect which will help to reduce the memory of trauma from the visits. We do this in my clinic for a lot of fearful birds and young birds just starting their vet visits until the owners can do desensitization training. I see a lot of difference in these birds vs birds that we've been seeing for a long time without sedation. They are generally more at ease coming into the clinic and the process of giving the injections for sedation is VERY non-traumatic.

I'm doing this for my young eclectus, Alfie. We're still working on a lot of training with him but his vet visits are not stressful or a source of fear because he doesn't remember them.

At this point I would also consult a specialist (someone who is boarded either by ABVP or AAZV) to talk about behavior techniques. Melody Hennigh is another wonderful resource, she runs Busy Beaks Academy and has a facebook page for her business. She's worked for Dr. Brian Speer for years and has presented on training and low stress handling of companion parrots for years at the avian vets conference. She is fantastic with birds and a wonderful person in general.

How old was this grey when you brought him home? We see a lot of vitamin A deficiencies in parrots and that will effect how their choanal papillae grow (little fleshy spines that help prevent things from going up into their nasal cavity from their mouth). If they are chronically vitamin A deficient these can become blunted or disappear altogether and they won't regrow even after the vitamin A goes back to normal levels, which can take a significant period of time.

Hypovitaminosis A can also predispose birds to upper respiratory infections and/or just accumulating crud in their nose because it affects how the epithelial tissues grow (the type of cells that line their respiratory tract). Because greys are powder down producing birds it can create an issue with their noses trying to get the powder out in addition to any environmental crud that happens to get in there. Not a comment on your home, we all have dust! True allergies in birds are not well documented.
 
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