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Edged dilute adult plumage (Update: Mottle)

Zara

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I´m really surprised by Nubes plumage. He is now a little over 14 months old and still not finished changing.
My other birds would have their first moult and be in their adult plumage by 10 months old.

Nube was moulting recently but seems to have slowed down again.
I don´t know if anyone has witnessed a bird with this mutation grow. I just want to be sure he´s moulting ok.
He´s been patchy on his head for a long time. I will pull some photos with dates to add below, but it will take me a while to get those. Here´s a video from yesterday - I turn the LED on half way through. Be sure to watch it in 1080p HD. His feathers are all scuew wiff, this is after being out of cage for over an hour with almost non stop flight. I think he is missing some feathers from his moult which is making them look odd too.


Sorry for the wobbly camera - I had everyone all out together.
 

Leih

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Wow! That is really interesting! Is Adélie similar?
 

Zara

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Adelie is the same mutation but with violet factor.
If you look at the pictures of Nube, the patches started when he turned 1. Adelie turns 1 on December 22, so if this is the way this mutation moults then it will happen to her in a month or two. These are the first birds I´ve seen with my own eyes with this mutation, online pictures are usually young birds (still with black on beak). Tim is the only person I know on the forum with *blue Edged dilute lovebirds.
 

Zara

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Side by side under LED
Screenshot_20191025_182347.jpg

Side by side no LED (screenshot from video) ;
Screenshot_20191025_182813.jpg

Adélie ;
Screenshot_20191025_182824.jpg

Before Nube started going patchy they looked very similar with no LED but now his head is going darker and its patchy

Ps, the colours are showing much clearer on mobile, its not as easy to see the difference on the laptop
 

Zara

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I will update my own thread as I have figured out why Nube is like this. I believe he is Mottle.
Both parents are not, neither was his clutch sibling, or his 4 siblings from a later clutch incl. Adélie who is also Edge Dilute.
I just wanted to update this incase anyone else searches the forum for this mutation or is also seeking an answer as I was :)

*He won´t be bred as his partner is his sister, if anyone should comment their concerns for the auto immune response of any chicks*

Here are some recent pictures from the 7th Jan. You can really see how much he is changing....
IMG_20200107_201709.jpg IMG_20200107_201648.jpg

A clip,
 

LunaLovebird

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The blue is so beautiful. I hadn’t seen blue edged dilute before. Anakin is edged dilute / marbled.

It’s so hard to get a good photo of. His feathers have a bit of yellow in them that never quite shows up.

4DAC3DE6-1E6B-426D-A3A4-71043F992A29.jpeg
E3B2F57C-37CF-4ED6-9398-E300C7492292.jpeg
FB11AA05-C278-4E06-BE01-68AB0302A8D6.jpeg
 

Zara

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Anakin is gorgeous! Yes I can see the yellow on the wing there :cloud9:
 

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Another update..... You wouldn´t recognize him if I wasn´t doing this thread. I could easily have posted and said I have a new bird and it would be believable. He is so different! It is really hard to pick up the colours on camera, but his head is almost completely white/patchy grey.
(Be sure to watch in HD)

I don´t know when this will stop changing... Or what to expect. I don´t know if he will end up all white... or with health problems.. The only info I have found on mottle is in the Lovebird compendium by Dirk Van den Abeele, which is where I discovered the mutation. Struggling to find good info online.
Any ideas? @Monica @Anfsurfer @expressmailtome @Hankmacaw @Macawnutz @Mockinbirdiva
 

Leih

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Wow, he's gorgeous! You can see a little green in his wing. Are you thinking possibly vitiligo? I'm not totally sure, but I don't think vitiligo is necessarily dangerous. But at any rate I hope it's just a mutation. You have a nice pedigree from Jaime and Aldora to calculate the odds of mottle, if there was any info to be found.
 

Zara

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@Leih from what I gather... it is not a mutation that comes from the parents... it just happens, randomly.
And Yes, he certainly is gorgeous. I was trying to describe his colour to someone and couldn´t, had to send them the video instead :lol:
 

Pyropus

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I can try to check it up if you want, didnt read this tread in detail yet (brain is a bit fried atm) but from skiming if its the patches spread out it could be SL in combination of with genes that inactivate one of the genes in genotype (several types of how this displays). Thats how you get tortoise cats, on some chromesome pairs the O is deactivated, on others the o, genotype for tortoise is Oo.

Will have to read more about it to give a more certain answer.
 

Leih

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I can try to check it up if you want, didnt read this tread in detail yet (brain is a bit fried atm) but from skiming if its the patches spread out it could be SL in combination of with genes that inactivate one of the genes in genotype (several types of how this displays). Thats how you get tortoise cats, on some chromesome pairs the O is deactivated, on others the o, genotype for tortoise is Oo.

Will have to read more about it to give a more certain answer.
I can try to check it up if you want, didnt read this tread in detail yet (brain is a bit fried atm) but from skiming if its the patches spread out it could be SL in combination of with genes that inactivate one of the genes in genotype (several types of how this displays). Thats how you get tortoise cats, on some chromesome pairs the O is deactivated, on others the o, genotype for tortoise is Oo.

Will have to read more about it to give a more certain answer.
Right, X Inactivation. In birds the males are homozygous, like human females so an avian version of the inactivation.
 

Pyropus

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Yeah many ways of inheritance and combination of genes working on eachother, but you also have enviroment playing into a phenotype,

P=G+E

so not going to say that I got it rigth just based on skimming a few posts, its an option though which could cause it, but has to read more about and systemize what she has of info, and read what they say about it online to get more clues on whats behind the mutation and how it apear and acts to say with a bit more surity.
 

Monica

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It's been a while since I've read up on mottle! And it's a mutation that I kind of hate!!!! Might have something to do with people's use of terminology!!! :rofl: What I do know for a fact is that all the lovebirds displayed here are gorgeous!!!!

When I've looked into the mottle gene in the past, a lot of people called it "acquired pied", and this is just a term that has never sat well with me... you don't "acquire" a mutation, you are born with it! Like the red factor mutation.... if you have a bird that is completely normal at birth and colors up red after the first molt or years later, that bird is not red factor! There's something wrong with the bird! And a vet may or may not be able to figure it out! It could be PBFD, organ failure, or some other reason! On the flip side, if a bird is born with EXTRA red as they feather out as chicks, and keep this amount of red (give or take...) into adult-hood, and that can be passed down onto future generations, then yeah, it's probably red factor! (very few exceptions!)

Now, that's not to say that there's anything wrong with a bird that has the mottle gene... there could be, or it could just be an odd skin/feather condition. When I thought of it as vitiligo, it made more sense to me. My sister has vitiligo, as far as I'm aware, was born with it. She's older than me so I don't know when it was realized or I don't remember! I do recall a story about her having a nickel or dime sized amount of white hair on the back of her head when she was 5 years old... which was so unique and odd that it was cut out to treasure.... and never grew in white again! Her vitiligo mostly showed up as what appeared to be white eye shadow that wouldn't wipe off... and white deodorant that was over-used! (plus some random white hairs on her head - mostly above/behind her ears)

They say that vitiligo tends to run in the family... or at least, there's a higher chance of it occurring when there's relatives who have it. I have no clue who our closest relative is that may have vitiligo! As far as I am aware, her two kids do not have it, our parents and grand-parents do not have it, I don't have it... so it could have been some great-great grand parents or maybe she just got unlucky and is a "first"?




So maybe Nube and Adélie have a relative that had it? Or Nube was just unlucky in the genetics? However he ended up with the mottle gene, it will be interesting to see how his colors settle over time! :)
 

Zara

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Thanks @Monica
No, it is definitely not any type of pied mutation. He did not hatch like this and was ¨normal¨ until 11-12 months old. He moulted his chick feathers into an adult plumage fine, with no patches or anything odd. It just appeared once he was almost a year old. I wish I remembered if this first appeared during a moult, but I can´t.

My inexperience with the Marbled mutation made me naively think this was part of him changing into his adult plumage, and I just took pictures every now and then and waited for the change to stop. It was only as I was reading up on the Pale mutation in the Lovebird Compendium for someone else on here that I flicked past the Mottle page and it caught my eye.

Both parents are not Mottle. Nube was their second chick together. Of the others I can confirm 4 other siblings are not mottle, the youngest 2 are still too young and one of the other siblings was lost before a year old.

I will certainly keep this thread up to date with how he is looking...
 

Leih

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It's entirely possible that Jamie and Aldora are heterozygous and Nube inherited both recessive and is homozygous recessive. That would be a 25% possibility. He's 1 out of 7? However, considering that these 7 are not really their only offspring skews that number.
 

Mockinbirdiva

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Another update..... You wouldn´t recognize him if I wasn´t doing this thread. I could easily have posted and said I have a new bird and it would be believable. He is so different! It is really hard to pick up the colours on camera, but his head is almost completely white/patchy grey.
(Be sure to watch in HD)

I don´t know when this will stop changing... Or what to expect. I don´t know if he will end up all white... or with health problems.. The only info I have found on mottle is in the Lovebird compendium by Dirk Van den Abeele, which is where I discovered the mutation. Struggling to find good info online.
Any ideas? @Monica @Anfsurfer @expressmailtome @Hankmacaw @Macawnutz @Mockinbirdiva
I don't have a clue... but boy... he is gorgeous!
 

Pyropus

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Nope it doesnt really skew that number in and for itself, because the math set up for skewing it is incorrect. So it could be posible that they simply are hetrozygous for the traits needed as such in theory.

The reason beeing that you cant use general percentage in such a small amount of number, the higher the number the more likely 25 percent will be, if your talking one geneset and complete domination, if not then the numbers are completely different.

But on small numbers it would at any rate be more rigth to say there is 25 percent chance for every egg, and you start anew everytime, meaning every time they lay an egg its 75 percent chance it wont be..so its unlikely it will show.
But like said that math only works when your talking abouth only one gene pair beeing involved. The more genepairs the more different the math will be.

And then you need to know how much of the P consist of G and how much of E, if enviroment factors in, then inheritability is even lower.

Did I mention I like math btw :pinkgrin:

I just find it more likely since we are dealing with a mutation that they say seem to apear randomly and rarely, that there is maybe both more then one genepair involved, and that its not just regular complete domination at work.

Because that would help drive the numbers for the chance of the phenotype to apear down.
 
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