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Urgent Dropping water and wing twitching (Sad update post #17)

lily.rose

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Today:
Parakeet has clear water coming out of her bottom every three minutes, and keeps twitching her wings. It is a full-body twitch that includes her head, almost like a shiver, but there are no drafts and her friend in the cage has been acting normal. When I approach the cage, she starts chirping and pacing on her perch like she is trying to get my attention. I noticed a lot of white and lime green poop on their newspaper this morning, but now it is all wrinkled from water.
She finished a ten day antibiotics schedule three days ago, and the vet said this could change her poop, but I am worried that she will die of dehydration.
I called the veterinarian, but I couldn't talk to the doctor and the assistant said I should call back if she is sitting in the bottom of the cage.
What do I do?

Previously:
13 days ago my new parakeet had bright green poop and was sitting in the bottom of the cage fluffed, so I took her to the vet and she was put on antibiotics for 10 days. Her poop and behavior went back to normal until she finished the antibiotics. I change their food and water every day, and more than that if they poop in it to try and keep bacteria from developing.

Please help! She is such a sweet little thing, and her best freind would be so forlorn if we lost her!
 
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Shezbug

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I would be calling the vet back and pushing for the answers to the questions you are asking here. Like, is dehydration a concern, is this normal after her antibiotics etc-

I am guessing the antibiotics may have not been administered for quite long enough and she is possibly getting unwell again or is unwell from the antibiotics killing off gut flora but I have no idea if I am right or not and only a vet can make that kind of call.
The frequency of watery poop and body twitching would be of concern for me, enough of a concern actually for me to be a pain in the vets bottom till they answered me and gave my mind some logical explanation and relief about the situation.
Waiting till she is on the bottom of the cage is a bit unfair on her if you can clearly see something is not right.
I know some areas vet trips are still only for major emergencies and I am not sure if this is the case for you but some proper answers from the vet on what you should expect to see now after the antibiotics is not too demanding or unreasonable I do not believe. This behavior may be what the vet expects to see (I highly doubt it but you never know) but if they want you till wait till your bird becomes unwell enough to resign herself to the bottom of the cage before you bother them for help again then I personally would be looking for another AV.

Until then try to make sure she is kept warm and hydrated and fed healthy foods only as she will need all the nutrients her body can get. Has she had anything that would cause her to poop watery stuff so often? Like sometimes birds tend to drink a fair bit when bathing, watermelon or other juicy watery foods increases the amount of liquid they pass.
 

lily.rose

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Thank you for your reply!
She actually passed away about 9pm just before you wrote this, and an hour after I got back from the vet.

The doctor at the emergency veterinarian I visited said they weren't qualified to do any poop or blood tests, and didn't have any ideas besides putting her back on antibiotics. All this was told to me over the phone, because I wasn't allowed in the building as a coronavirus procedure.

I got her travel cage back an hour later from the receptionist and left, but the energetic little bird I sent in was now soaking wet, limp, and silent. She didn't even react when I touched her. I don't know what happened in the vet, but it horrifies me to think that taking her to someone who proved to be unqualified had actually injured her and made her worse. Her legs weren't working right, and she struggled to get to her water bowl. My only theory was that they botched an IV treatment in which a needle is put into her upper leg, and had physically injured her, explaining how wet she was and the loss of physical ability that she had an hour before. Is that even possible?

She started to perk up, and even sat on her favorite perch, but her legs still weren't working right, and they splayed out as she leaned against the perch with her body, eventually falling to the bottom of the cage. I set her next to her best freind (a little yellow bird who is paired inseparably with her), but she couldn't hold on to the perch, so I had to hold her next to him in my hand. Then for a terrifying second she squawked and flapped painfully and dropped her head down to the side. I thought maybe she was still alive, so I held her gently and told her how much Kiki (her companion) and I loved her, but within ten minutes she was stiff and cold.

Clearly she was still sick, but I wonder if maybe the stress of the vet finished her off when she might have survived had I just continued with the antibiotics that were still left in the bottle.
Had she died without my intervention, I would have hated myself forever for not taking her to the vet, but having taken her to the vet and possibly caused her death is just as terrible.

I put her on a towel in the bottom of the cage for her companion to see, and he called out to her a few times without response. I think that as much as this is killing me, I will find more significant love in my life. Kiki, on the other hand, will never get his mate back, and now lives in a cage with whatever bacteria or parasite killed his love. I am taking him out and cleaning the whole thing tomorrow, but I still don't have answers with which to keep him safe, and now I don't know what vet I should go to.

Any thoughts?
 

lily.rose

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I think this might have been fatty liver disease.
She showed a lot of the symptoms: labored breathing, diarrhea, green droppings, seizures, and loss of balance.

When I got her a month ago, she was on an all-seed diet. I was switching her slowly over to a pellet food called Harrison's, and offering her fresh fruits and leafy greens in new ways every day (cut up into tiny pieces in her bowl, smoothies, hanging in the cake, etc.) which she didn't appear to ever be interested in. But I wasn't letting her go hungry to incentivise new foods because I thought she was just sick and needed to recover.

Had I thought of this as the potential issue, I would have been syringe feeding her the antibiotics twice a day as well as some warm veggie smoothie. Maybe that would have saved her.
 

Shezbug

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Oh gosh, I am so sorry to hear she did not make it :sorrow: I am glad you were there for her in the end but I am also so sorry you had to see her go and experience this whole thing :(

I really don't know what the cause could have been but I do know that beating your self up over doing what you thought was right (and what everyone would advise you to do) by taking her to the people who are more knowledgeable with illnesses in animals is not going to help you any so please let go of that thought and feeling. I think you did the right thing by trying to get her more qualified help given your description of what she was like before you took her in. Sometimes there are just no answers, no right and no wrong- sometimes things just happen no matter how much we try to prevent it.
Kiki will grieve for a while then find a new normal life for himself- that is what birds tend to do, so even though it will be sad and there may be some changes in him, he will be alright given some time.

:sadhug2::sadhug2::sadhug2:
 

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I'm so sorry,,:sorrow:
 

Tiel Feathers

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I’m so very sorry for your and Kiki’s loss. You tried your best to help her, so don’t be too hard on yourself. I’m sure she knew she was loved at the end.
:sadhug2:
 

lily.rose

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Thanks Shezbug, Birdbabe, and Tiel Feathers for the sympathy and advise

I got a vet appointment for Kiki at a different animal hospital to make sure he will be alright, but it won't happen until Friday.

I spent all of yesterday completely sanitizing their toys and cage and left them in the sun for about four hours in case I could protect Kiki from any bacteria or parasites, but this morning I noticed more green poo in the fresh newspaper (which could only be from him). Then his little feet started twitching, and about an hour later his wings and head were twitching too, just like Gigi!! He also started lifting up his little feet to scratch his underbelly like he was itchy.
I am really scared that I will lose him too!!

I gave up my lab shift for today to do some more research, and I found a forum post from a few years ago about a bird with a similar issue, down to the itching, twitching, and clear liquid. Their vet had been able to run blood tests, and prescribed "lactulose to help lower toxins (it acidifies the gut, trapping ammonia for excretion in lieu of staying in the blood), milk thistle (to boost liver health), and doxycycline (in case it's some sort of bacteria damaging his liver/to prevent any other infections while his immune system is compromised). "
I had found from previous research that lactulose, milk thistle, and antibiotics are commonly used for liver disease.

I immediately put him on the fresh antibiotics that I had gotten for Gigi, and I found milk thistle for birds online. With my amazon prime account, I can get it here tomorrow. I wasn't able to find lactulose.

Since he appears to be stable, I don't want to risk taking him to the hospital and over-stressing him like Gigi, and I am not sure I trust the emergency vet after my last visit. I am hopeful I can manage the situation until Friday and get him to a bird specialist.

I will update as soon as I get results, in case someone with the same problem is reading my posts.
 
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Shezbug

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Call them and ask then if you can take in a poop sample at least. I can’t help but wonder if you have a toy or something that’s toxic.
 

lily.rose

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Thanks Shezbug!
I did bring in newspaper from the bottom of their cage the last time that I went in, but the emergency vet can't do poop tests.
I thought of the toxic toy thing too, and I took everything even possibly suspicious out of Kiki's cage when I did the deep clean. He now only has a few natural wooden perches, his ceramic food bowls, and his cuttlebone.

I also noticed that he is frequently rubbing his beak on his perch and there is yellow around his nostrils. It could be a sinus infection.
So this guy probably has a lot of different stuff going on, and hopefully the bird specialist can tell me on Friday.
I just need him to stay with me that long.
 
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Tiel Feathers

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I hope Kiki will be okay!!
 

Shezbug

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If you’ve moved everything from before then is the cuttlebone new?
Often the ties sold with them are not safe.
 

lily.rose

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New cuttlebone. Yes, I agree, those flexible metal clips don't seem safe. It is currently being held by his wooden ladder perch.

The antibiotics seemed to work pretty quickly on Gigi, but Kiki has had three doses now and the watery green poop, itching, and twitching have stayed pretty consistent. Might not be bacterial, but I won't stop giving them to him just in case.
 
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lily.rose

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I saw a little old vet on Friday morning, who has seen thousands of birds in his career and writes books on avian holistic care.
He is the closest thing to a bird specialist in my state, but it took a week to get into his office.
An hour-long visit as well as the antibiotics he prescribed and a custom-made formula to put in Kiki's food actually cost significantly less than the vet I had been seeing before.

This new doctor prescribed the antibiotic Enrofloxacin, with a powdered formula to add to Kiki's food containing: "Custom Formula Liver Disease, Detox, Metabolic-UltraClear Plus, Silymarin/Arthicoke/turmeric (SAT, AntiOxidant, Livaplex, Phytoganix, DMG, Free and Easy Wanderer, Health Flora, and Trace Minerals"

I had thought that maybe Kiki and Gigi had fatty liver disease, but the doctor said that he has seen budgies live for 20 years on seed diets, and that it wouldn't likely occur in birds this young. He said that it was most likely a bacterial infection that killed Gigi, along with added stress. The antibiotics prescribed to Gigi by the original vet were for cats and dogs, not birds, and they only had me give Gigi a quarter of the necessary dose, over half the necessary period to get results. The fact that Kiki was her cage-mate meant that he should have been put on antibiotics sooner. He also thought that Kiki's liver needed to be treated, along with a possible sinus infection. He told me that if I ever bought another budgie, I should find the plain green ones, because they are constitutionally stronger than the birds with color mutations.

While I cannot perfectly relate the results and advise from the experienced doctor, I think that the most important conclusion is quality over speed in vet care. Whoever reads this article with similar symptoms should probably keep their bird warm and safe, give them as little stress as possible, maybe put some milk thistle (not extracted using alcohol) in their food, and schedule an appointment with an expert as soon as possible instead of rushing that night to an emergency clinic.

Kiki's poop looks normal today, he isn't twitching, scratching, rubbing his beak, or standing on one foot anymore, and he is active around the cage and likes to preen, flap his wings, and chirp! I couldn't be happier with the results!
 

Tiel Feathers

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Glad you have some answers and I hope the new meds help. That’s unfortunate that the previous vet wasn’t qualified. Was this vet Dr. Dave McCluggage? He is a well known holistic vet that I have a phone consultation with 1-2 times a year, and my birds take a probiotic prescribed by him.
 

lily.rose

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Yes, I would highly recommend Dr. Dave McCluggage! I don't know what I'll do when he retires.

A quick update on Kiki:
He finished his 14 days of antibiotics two days ago. The first day he was off the antibiotics, his poop went green and he started having the clear liquid droppings I had seen in Gigi. I really trust that the antibiotics were right this time, so I tried to stay calm, hoping it was just an after-effect. Now today his poop looks normal and I haven't seen any water dropping. No other symptoms, so he seems like a healthy bird!

Hurray!
 

lily.rose

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It has been six months.
Kiki had a bad nail trim which caused him a lot of stress.
A few days later he redeveloped the symptoms: twitching, fluffing, etc. The nail that got cut a little too short had healed perfectly and didn't look red or infected. He didn't favor it at all. At first I thought that he was just uncomfortable because he was molting, but then I saw him sitting at the bottom of the cage and his poop turned black. It was getting late, so I was planning to call the vet the next day to pick up Enrofloxacin, but he never settled down to go to sleep. Eventually I took him out of the cage and held him gently over a heating pad (he couldn't perch without tipping over). At about 4am he started jumping off of my hand, landing on his chest with wings spread, and laying like a dead bird. I know they can't breath when their chests are crushed, so I thought this would block his air flow, and decided to hold him in a "correct" bird position with his head up and his legs supporting him. After a few more jumps, he settled down and just sat in my hands blinking and breathing. I thought we would make it until the morning, but at about 5:30am he just went limp.

With Kiki gone, the cause of his illness might not matter, but since my last posts he acquired a new friend. Kermit is (as promised to the vet) a healthy green budgie. Kiki's illness was so swift that I didn't have time to separate them, and they were still preening each other and sharing food the day that he passed. I washed everything with hot water and soap, but only a day later Kermit developed the twitching and fluffing as well.

I had antibiotics still in the fridge from Gigi, and they wouldn't expire for another few months. Although it felt really sketchy to give Kermit the antibiotics from a previous bird, he wouldn't be able to see the vet for a few more days and I was afraid that he would pass as quickly as Kiki did. Six months had dried the antibiotics out so I added a little water and ended up having to give them to him five times a day to maintain the original dosage. Keep in mind, these were the antibiotics from the emergency vet that were intended for cats and dogs, and had only kept Gigi alive while she was still on them.

Kermit is doing well so far. I do not give him medicine overnight so that he can rest, but that means that he is twitchy and fluffed in the morning.

At this point, I am very sure that the thing which has been afflicting my birds is some kind of bacterial infection. My original idea about liver disease was probably incorrect since is seems to pass between birds, Kermit and Kiki have been reliably eating veggies for a few months now, and they are both on liver supplements from the vet. My only guess is that the bacteria in Kiki has been ever-present and proliferated while he was stressed.

This brings up several questions:
Will I be battling this bacteria as long as I keep maintaining my flock?
Would it be cruel to get Kermit a companion someday now that I know he could transfer his illness on?
Should I try to keep antibiotics on-hand since they seem so hard to get in time?
Does it make sense to contact the breeder that Kiki and Gigi came from to let them know that they might have an infectious bacteria on their hands?

PXL_20201217_171519089.jpg
 

expressmailtome

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I am sorry for your loss.
 

Crazy4parrots

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It has been six months.
Kiki had a bad nail trim which caused him a lot of stress.
A few days later he redeveloped the symptoms: twitching, fluffing, etc. The nail that got cut a little too short had healed perfectly and didn't look red or infected. He didn't favor it at all. At first I thought that he was just uncomfortable because he was molting, but then I saw him sitting at the bottom of the cage and his poop turned black. It was getting late, so I was planning to call the vet the next day to pick up Enrofloxacin, but he never settled down to go to sleep. Eventually I took him out of the cage and held him gently over a heating pad (he couldn't perch without tipping over). At about 4am he started jumping off of my hand, landing on his chest with wings spread, and laying like a dead bird. I know they can't breath when their chests are crushed, so I thought this would block his air flow, and decided to hold him in a "correct" bird position with his head up and his legs supporting him. After a few more jumps, he settled down and just sat in my hands blinking and breathing. I thought we would make it until the morning, but at about 5:30am he just went limp.

With Kiki gone, the cause of his illness might not matter, but since my last posts he acquired a new friend. Kermit is (as promised to the vet) a healthy green budgie. Kiki's illness was so swift that I didn't have time to separate them, and they were still preening each other and sharing food the day that he passed. I washed everything with hot water and soap, but only a day later Kermit developed the twitching and fluffing as well.

I had antibiotics still in the fridge from Gigi, and they wouldn't expire for another few months. Although it felt really sketchy to give Kermit the antibiotics from a previous bird, he wouldn't be able to see the vet for a few more days and I was afraid that he would pass as quickly as Kiki did. Six months had dried the antibiotics out so I added a little water and ended up having to give them to him five times a day to maintain the original dosage. Keep in mind, these were the antibiotics from the emergency vet that were intended for cats and dogs, and had only kept Gigi alive while she was still on them.

Kermit is doing well so far. I do not give him medicine overnight so that he can rest, but that means that he is twitchy and fluffed in the morning.

At this point, I am very sure that the thing which has been afflicting my birds is some kind of bacterial infection. My original idea about liver disease was probably incorrect since is seems to pass between birds, Kermit and Kiki have been reliably eating veggies for a few months now, and they are both on liver supplements from the vet. My only guess is that the bacteria in Kiki has been ever-present and proliferated while he was stressed.

This brings up several questions:
Will I be battling this bacteria as long as I keep maintaining my flock?
Would it be cruel to get Kermit a companion someday now that I know he could transfer his illness on?
Should I try to keep antibiotics on-hand since they seem so hard to get in time?
Does it make sense to contact the breeder that Kiki and Gigi came from to let them know that they might have an infectious bacteria on their hands?

View attachment 366782
I would contact the breeder! Could be a bacteria or a fungus? @Hankmacaw ? @Zara only way to know is to get a 2nd opinion from other vet.. and I’m sorry for your loss!
 

Lady Jane

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I had a friend whos bird died and vet examined everything in the cage because it was a mystery The test he did showed the metal clip for the cuttlebone was zinc posative which is toxic to birds.I

I am so very sorry this happened.
 
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