Diarrhea

[Kathie]

You might consider probiotics before using ACV (vinegar) Vinegar changes the pH balance in the GI tract, and if it is used it must always be followed up with probiotics to restore the pH balance. The probiotics will help to maintain intestinal flora balance. With a sick bird, pathogens (disease-causing bacteria) take the place of the good bacteria. They consist of naturally occurring organisms that aid in digestion and inhibit the production of disease producing bacteria. Probiotics help to supplement and replace used up beneficial bacteria in the GI tract. Thus what is happening, especially after antibiotic treatment, is the replenishment of good bacteria which acts to lower inhibit the levels of bad bacteria from becoming pathogenic. Probiotics such as lactobacillus also lower the pH.

Please....no GSE: Preventative Treatments - Just Cockatiels![/U][/B]

Susanne - what are your thoughts on AviPow? I have spoken to many people who have used it with good results.

I also had a conversation recently with an extremely knowledgeable member of the avian community. A study was performed on ACV and GSE. Both were found to break down at the crop and were found to have no medicinal powers past the crop.

 

[srtiels]

I've used AviPow with handfed babies with good results.

About 10 years ago a bunch of us breeder on a forum started to notice that these products had an adverse reaction to crop tissue. I found part of a saved posting from then.
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It is a dual edge sword and is something that should be given short term only, to an immediate existing problem. The problem is that it does raise the PH levels in the body, which in turn can affect muscles and peristalitic action in the digestive tract. Probiotics then must to be used to correct the pH level so that the use of ACV does not cause an imbalance of the intestinal flora.

As to the ACV and GSE it got where locally I was helping more breeders with crop problems that I had never encountered before. It seemed the common denominator was either the ACV or GSE used preventatively.

What I've learned is that when there is actual yeast in the mouth, throat or interior of the crop it ONLY takes 1 to 2 days at the most for the use of something such as vinegar (swabbed with a Q-tip) which contains a higher pH than the body to neutralize or stop further growth. The yeast build-up may still be 'visually' present for a few days more, BUT it is dead, and has yet to slag off from the live tissue. In being dead/neutralized there would be no need to further treat.

When I was examining some of the budding yeast that was adhered to the inside of the crop those areas were pitted and the yeast was adhered, like it was 'rooted' into the tissue. It is obvious from working with vinegar swabs on the mouth and crop interior that there must be at least some form of tissue penetration, which is needed to help break/neutralize the contact from below the yeast. If so, then it stands to reason that the higher pH may also be penetrating enough to effect the muscles, thus the stretching. I do know from first hand experience that as long as vinegar is used with overstretched tissue the tissue is unable to contract and shrink. When stretched it also weakens and reduces the frequency of the peristaltic movement. If this is going on externally (the crop) it makes you wonder what changes are going on in the rest of the GI tract...

 

[Kathie]

I've used AviPow with handfed babies with good results.

About 10 years ago a bunch of us breeder on a forum started to notice that these products had an adverse reaction to crop tissue. I found part of a saved posting from then.

Just to confirm that I am reading you correctly, you are referring to ACV and GSE when you mention "these products had an adverse reaction to crop tissue."

 

[Anne & Gang]

 

[birdlvr466]

I still would urge you to seek an avian vet. As you said, they are willing to let you make payments and there is always Care Credit you could get. None of us our Avian Vets and it sounds like your bird needs to be seen sooner than later.

 

[Big Blues]

I still would urge you to seek an avian vet. As you said, they are willing to let you make payments and there is always Care Credit you could get. None of us our Avian Vets and it sounds like your bird needs to be seen sooner than later.

I agree, since diarrhea is likely a symptom of a larger problem. Members here make recommendations of bird home first aid that might help given what symptoms have been identified that might help until you can get your bird to the vet.

 

[srtiels]

Just to confirm that I am reading you correctly, you are referring to ACV and GSE when you mention "these products had an adverse reaction to crop tissue."
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Yes....the discussion was handfeeding babies.

I have pix's of the damage done from Nolvasan of the intestine....which the mucousal wall were totally destroyed from maintenance water treatments that many vets at the time recommended for birds. NEVER use anything in the water that is also a disinfectant. We can kill our birds slowly with kindness and not even know it, or create long term damage that can be irreversible.

As others have suggested it is best to seek a qualified avian vet.

 

[WingedVictory]

There are many opinions on the use of GSE and ACV, some credible some not.

The following quote from my avian medical library, Clinical Avian Medicine by Avian vet, Dr Gregg Harrison (pages 349-350).

“Apple cider vinegar is an acidifier of the intestinal tract and entire body. Specific
avian indications for apple cider vinegar (organic, nonpasteurized)
include chronic bacterial or yeast infections,
chronic diarrhea or foul stools and proventricular dilation
disease support. It is dosed at 1 to 2 tablespoons per 8
ounces of drinking water, as the only water source for 2
weeks. Probiotics are supplements of beneficial bacteriaa
given to reestablish the normal bacterial flora in the digestive
tract. They may be administered to birds after antibiotic
therapy or severe GI disturbances.”

There are many interesting articles in regards to GSE grouped here: Holisticbird.org

Internet information about birds can be confusing, always confide in your avian vet.

Gary

 

[srtiels]

Gary....many of that info is outdated, the same with the publication. This same vet endorsed Nolvasan treatments in water as a preventative against yeast. And since vets have many of these reference books the info is taken as gospel. At the time of printing none were aware of the damage that these supposedly innocent product can cause.

 

[WingedVictory]

The publication of Clinical Avian Medicine is 2006. Do you have credible information against the use of ACV that you can send me? I would prefer information from the Avian veterinary community. I'm always looking for the latest information on subjects like this.

Thank you for any updated information.

 

[srtiels]

Much of the info in the book is most likely repetative of many of his past publications.

No....just personal experience and from a flock of when I had 800 cockatiels and could see the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of any given treatment. Visually seeing results and hands on experience was far better than what I had read or heard.

I am familiar with many of the postings on Holistic bird and had voiced my experiences and opinions back then.

As to ACV, I have to laugh when many tout that it is also a nutritional benefit. It has so few nutrients and none are listed on the packaging, and by the time it is further diluted for water treatments nutrient content is non-existant. Still, it is enough to change the pH in the body, and this needs to be corrected, which many don't research enough to follow through with. One person quotes what they read or heard and others follow like blinded sheep and further pass the info along.

 

[Birdiemarie]

...One person quotes what they read or heard and others follow like blinded sheep and further pass the info along.

I'm sure that's partly true but then again to blindly believe someone's personal info can also be risky. I think both avenues need to be examined because the best conclusions are usually found somewhere in the middle.

 

[Kathie]

Sara - just checking in to see how your little girl is doing.

 

[WingedVictory]

Checking for an update

 

[all4stvoyager]

Everything is still the same...where can I find slippery elm? A GNC type place?

 

[birdlvr466]

Yes GNC or any drugstore should have it. I still would urge you to take him to the vet and work out a payment plan.

 

[Big Blues]

GNC and drug stores carry Slippery Elm in capsule form, but the best for pets would be in bulk and we have only found it in health food stores like Whole Foods, Four Seasons, Chucks, and the like. This is a possible herbal remedy for mild cases, but recommend continued communication with your vet for professional advice since diarrhea is still a problem.