Competitive/territorial behavior?

[GreenThing]

The boys have been doing very well-- I think Merlin is nearing the end of his molt, and Percy is about in the middle. Percy's weight is steady at 42 and Merlin has slowly gone from 29 to 34 grams (he was getting used to Percy, moving, and molting all at once at 29, so I'm happy he has added weight on the same amounts of and type of food).

Merlin steps up with no incentive or really much training, now, because he is so excited by my hands (he also always accepts any offer of "transport" or being helped out of a tight spot). Beak tapping, eye-pinning, little wobbly nuzzles-- and once he delicately regurgitated a single pellet onto my thumbnail. No funny business yet, but when he starts dancing his little feet like a toddler who need the bathroom (and I can literally feel his little toes go from cool to warm), I put him down or distract him with a bit of straw.

Percy is very much the budgie who gets what he wants, of the two of them. He picks what bowl he wants to each out of in the morning and Merlin gets the other one-- when he wants to switch, poor Merlin has to switch! And lately, it's like Percy can detect when Merlin is getting too worked up, and he will chase him off my hand (Merlin is catching on to this, too-- sometimes he anticipates it, sometimes he just SCREME).

I have been trying to be more deliberate about sometimes offering Percy a treat or the chance to step up on my hand first. Instead of just talking to Merlin (which is tempting, because he seeks me out and is more overtly affectionate), I have been putting a lot of time in with Percy. Percy will gently groom my face and likes to sit and preen on my hand (he does a sexy dance sometimes, just to show Merlin HE has the hand now, but doesn't really seem to understand the appeal), and sometimes when I've rescued him (the other day he fell off a curtain rod and landed behind the door, and he took my offered hand) he sits and just stares at me like a little owl, as if he is recategorizing me. He is more responsive to my singing now, too, and starts beak grinding and getting comfy (he really seems to know when I'm singing TOO him, so I make sure to single them both out for attention). I've also been working hard on getting them to recognize their names-- and now and I can call "Percy Percy!" and he will look over at me!

Is there anything else I should be doing when Percy chases Merlin away? He doesn't do it when Merlin is just perching or interacting-- and I can't tell if it is resource-guarding or jealousy. Even if I offer him attention first, he isn't always interested. Any chance I can, I get Percy on one hand and Merlin on the other (the hand doesn't matter, Percy will chase Merlin off the second he starts to get into wooing mode) and redirect them with treats. Yesterday we had the HUGE adventure of learning that the bathroom is Not Scary and An Okay Place to Be, and they were both so stimulated by the treats and glimpse of a new vista that they didn't bicker at all. They will also do things like land on the bed together and climb all over me very companionably, so I think their overall relationship is healthy.

 

[Sparkles99]

I let mine be. Aurelius & Marzipan are pushy with their friends. It’s not violent, but nor is it polite.

 

[Lori D Pert]

Minor budgie squabbles are best left to the budgies. Their hierarchy is known unto them and them alone. As long as it's not aggressive to the point of injury it's best to leave it alone.

 

[GreenThing]

Soooo, they are definitely seeing attention from me as a resource they need to fight over. I never interfere, even though things mostly go in Percy's favor and that pings my human sense of unfairness! But the jealousy is making it difficult to work on continuing to bond with Percy-- and I don't know if I should "reward" him with any attention if he got on my finger by driving Merlin off?

The bickering is much more pointed than it ever was before, and I'm mostly worried about making it worse or encouraging the wrong things.

Percy let me scritch his head for the first time the other day! He had a feather awkwardly sticking out on his cheek and I gently reached for it, and he just leaned his whole head over without any hesitation. Of course, as soon as he noticed Merlin started screaming (which Percy ignored) and then dancing around (which Percy ignored) and then came and stood on Percy's tail (which Percy DID NOT IGNORE).

Merlin is started to be too nervous to fly to my finger, because he feels Percy right behind him-- I'm trying to bond more with Percy, but I don't want to go about it in a way that makes Merlin feel insecure or rejected. Merlin also seems to be having more fits of frustrated screaming.

It's gotten to the point that I use both of their names I look from one to the other several times when I'm singing! Because they seem to notice even if I'm just talking/singing to one of them!!

 

[Wardy]

This is a really interesting thread for me and whilst i have a different species of bird i can see similar behaviours in what you are describing with my two conures it became quite apparent tonight whilst i was trying to work with KiKI who has been so nervy since i got her and i was working on her stepping up ( she has maybe done this 3 times since we got her however Mojo is on my hand as soon as offered ) I hope you dont mind me sharing my thoughts

Percy is very much the budgie who gets what he wants, of the two of them. He picks what bowl he wants to each out of in the morning and Merlin gets the other one-- when he wants to switch, poor Merlin has to switch! And lately, it's like Percy can detect when Merlin is getting too worked up, and he will chase him off my hand (Merlin is catching on to this, too-- sometimes he anticipates it, sometimes he just SCREME).

I have stopped offering food outside of the cage since getting KiKi with the exception of foraging oppertunity this means there is no fighting over food bowls if they are hungry they return to one of the cages to eat ( they have both been in each others cage to feed when hungry and Mojo only go's into KiKi's cage for
water as she has obviously learnt i wont lock her in there when she is having a drink as it's not her house )

Is there anything else I should be doing when Percy chases Merlin away?

KiKI chases Mojo away quite often when she is being a little bit to much a little bit agressive i have had to intervene on occasion when Mojo has grabbed Keeks tail to stop her moving away however i do generally let things play out until wings or feet are getting bit.

Soooo, they are definitely seeing attention from me as a resource they need to fight over. I never interfere, even though things mostly go in Percy's favor and that pings my human sense of unfairness! But the jealousy is making it difficult to work on continuing to bond with Percy-- and I don't know if I should "reward" him with any attention if he got on my finger by driving Merlin off?

KiKI has only just started to step up and today when Mojo was annoying her she started to fly to me i saw this as a oppertunity to work on bonding with her and when Mojo flew over i didnt dismiss her however i stopped her getting anywhere near KiKi as it appeared she wanted to be left alone and didnt want Mojo to bother her.

and I don't know if I should "reward" him with any attention if he got on my finger by driving Merlin off?

If you cant intervene and he drives merlin off i would not reward him as this will reinforce driving Merlin off if i chase him away and will get a treat if i am interacting with Keeks now and Mojo jumps in and has a go at KiKi i put Mojo down on the table as if she has bit me and tell her no thats not ok it's a work in progress.

But the jealousy is making it difficult to work on continuing to bond with Percy

i dont know if parrots get jealous i would just say it is about finding a balance between the two easier said than done i have witnessed that today as KiKi sought me out for refuge Mojo become much more aggresive towards me

It's gotten to the point that I use both of their names I look from one to the other several times when I'm singing! Because they seem to notice even if I'm just talking/singing to one of them!!

I dont do this i really cant sing but i have always sung dancing fool by Frank Zappa to Mojo and does she dance yes she does to there are times in interact with Mojo and times i interact with KiKi and times we all interact together its trying trying to find that balance.

 

[GreenThing]

This is a really interesting thread for me and whilst i have a different species of bird i can see similar behaviours in what you are describing with my two conures it became quite apparent tonight whilst i was trying to work with KiKI who has been so nervy since i got her and i was working on her stepping up ( she has maybe done this 3 times since we got her however Mojo is on my hand as soon as offered ) I hope you dont mind me sharing my thoughts

This is very interesting, actually!

They are actually okay with food if they each have something. Next step is Percy gets to have what Merlin has (no fighting, only surrender). Percy will actually share a bowl with Merlin (after they've munched all the most obvious goodies), if Merlin is very sweet and meek. They are also okay sharing a millet spray or getting a treat from each hand (but I drop both treats at the same time the minute one is finished, so they don't fight). I've seen them share toys without much bickering, too, although they seem to enjoy deliberately getting into a compromising position (hanging upside down by one foot) and then scolding the other budgie for making them lose their balance!

I have only intervened once or twice at bedtime, and sometimes I'll "juggle" Merlin when I can tell Percy is coming to chase him off. I think "jealous" for budgies is something like-- "I want that. You have that. *I* WANT THAT." but I have been surprised by how nuanced their moods can be. I'm glad I read someone else's post about their older aloof budgie feeling threatened by a young, tame budgie-- I realized that Percy might still enjoy my attention, even if he wasn't showing it, so I really am trying to do everything the same for both of them, like they're toddlers.

Tonight I brought Merlin out first, but then I put him down and held Percy on my finger while talking back and forth to both of them. That helps Merlin feel included (for about thirty seconds, then I must have praised Percy too much and he started the budgie war cry). I have also been vocally praising Percy a lot and-- it sounds wild, but I think it makes him really happy! It was almost eerie tonight and the other day when I reached to help him with a feather and he just... assumed that's what I was trying to do.

The most curious thing is that Percy ONLY reacts to Merlin like this when he is excited, including his screaming. My logic is that... it makes Percy feel like Merlin is challenging him, and he needs to chase the challenger off to a further physical distance. In the moment, they are two males caught up the urge to bond and pass on genes-- outside of that, they are two buddies in a tiny flock. He's not wrong, either-- Merlin stomped on his tail like a little brat when I dared to give scritches. It's like the sight of Merlin's eyes going ping!ping! and his sexy song and dance trigger male vs. male mode.

I've noticed that when they are out of the cage and go into that floofed-up, hunched chattering posture that they always pick distant places (one in the cage, one on the tree) to settle down-- versus "play mode" when they are running back and forth together like tiny businessmen trading stocks.

 

[Wardy]

Will like to see how they progress and if you see a change over time.

 

[GreenThing]

Update & observations:

Now that I'm paying more attention, I've noticed that during their "sustained loud chatter" time of the day (usually after vigorous play/eating and before a brief nap), they pick distant points of the room whenever they have the option (cage open) and Percy always picks inside the cage as his "platform". I've read that this sustained chatter possibly plays the role of a "here I am ladies" auditory beacon, so it makes sense that this is the only time they seek physical distance from each other.

I think Percy might be a tad territorial over this area of the cage, and that might be adding to his aggression at bedtime (they always settle eventually, but lately Percy will chase Merlin off of his perch a dozen times or more). This is tough, because the front upper right of the cage is the only place they will sleep (last time I tried moving the sleeping perches, they fought over clinging to a toy in the old spot, and Merlin seemed unable to settle down for hours). The fights aren't deathly serious, but they both have visible blood feathers growing new flights right at the edge of their wings, and I've intervened a few times out of fear they might hurt themselves squabbling in the dark.

Have also tried to scale any interaction between Merlin and my hands way back. He starts eye-pinning and wooing my fingers so immediately and obsessively that I'm worried it might mess with our dynamic down the line. Lately I lead with my face with my hands in my pockets (and Merlin will literally tilt his head looking for them) and only use my hands when we are practicing recall. The less my hands are involved, the less aggression there seems to be between Merlin and Percy (not a zero amount, though, talking/gazing too much at one will still set the other off).

Another interesting observation: when they glimpsed a bit of uncovered mirror while learning The Bathroom Is Not Scary, Percy immediately started displaying and singing and trying to tap his reflection, while Merlin looked scared and did not interact with his.

I might eventually need to add two pellet bowls, but I think I'll write a separate post about this...

 

[oliandsun]

So I actually had this same thing happen with my two budgies. When I first got Oliver and Sunshine, they were best buddies. Always hanging out, happy together, preening each other, eating together, etc. they even flew around the house to the same areas and chatted away hanging out. Then when Oliver started getting to hang out with me and my husband on our hands, he started bickering with Sunshine a little more. I didn’t think much of it, so I just let it be. But then it got the the point where Oliver would always want to hang out. Like badly. If they were having out of cage time, he would fly to my hand and successfully land on it no matter what I was doing - if I was on my phone, laptop, heck he’d even come into the other rooms looking for us. He also started giving us seeds by regurgitating them on our finger. I think he became obsessed with our hands. As the obsession of hanging out with us increased, his aggression towards Sunshine went up too. He was attacking her all the time for no reason, bothering her when she was eating, or just minding her own business. I really didn’t know what else to do, so we made the decision to reduce hand time. It helped a little bit, but not enough. He still fought her. I could tell Sunshine was getting really sad and lonely, and I couldn’t stand seeing her treated like that.



So we made the tough decision to not let him on our hands at all anymore. It was really tough and broke my heart, but after a few weeks of not allowing him to hang out with us at all, he went back to being incredibly kind to Sunshine and her best friend again.



I think that he saw our hands as potential mates, and he switched from caring about Sunshine to caring about our hand. I guess he’s a little monogamous bird lol. I really didn’t know what else to do, so unfortunately Oliver is no longer allowed to hang out with us at all. If we go up to talk to him, we just keep our hands in our pockets or behind our backs. But because of how kind he is towards Sunshine now, and how much happier she of course is… I feel I made the right choice. They get to hang out all day together happily and get along (almost) all the time. There are still days I wish he could hang out with us, but it would be selfish and cause hurt to Sunshine.



I don’t have a solution for you unfortunately, but wanted to share that I’ve been through something similar and it sucks. Everyone has to make their own decisions on these situations, and I chose to give up my hang-out time with Oliver so Sunshine and Oliver could have a better relationship. That for me was worth it good luck!!

 

[Lori D Pert]

This is interesting. I had Sam (a little hen) for about 1 1/2 years before I got a very young Scout (a little boy). Now initially I wasn't sure how they would interact together but to my surprise Sam (very tame and feisty) was very gentle with Scout. There relationship is even now quite tight but Sam has remained dominant over us. It is apparent she does not like Scout's interaction with us. He gets told off for getting too close. She intercedes...always. This reaction from her has not caused any incident but that is mostly because he is so laid back. He willingly gives up. Smart little fella he is but he sneaks a little attention from us when she is off playing with a toy. It's quite funny really. She has the same possessiveness with certain toys but never to the point that Scout is in danger of her rath. An open beak and the angry chipmunk sound are all she needs. But this is a hen with a boy. Two boys are a whole different dynamic.

 

[Fergus Mom]

and once he delicately regurgitated a single pellet onto my thumbnail.

Has anyone told you that you have a talent for writing? I nearly spit out my coffee for real when I read this.

Yesterday we had the HUGE adventure of learning that the bathroom is Not Scary and An Okay Place to Be

That's great! Did you close the toilet lid?

Of course, as soon as he noticed Merlin started screaming (which Percy ignored) and then dancing around (which Percy ignored) and then came and stood on Percy's tail (which Percy DID NOT IGNORE).

Again, the coffee was perilously on the brink of running down my chin...

when they are running back and forth together like tiny businessmen trading stocks.

But I digress. Possibly a COMEDY writer! Oh my gosh!!!

Fergus and Fiona's favorite sleeping spot is in the very top right side of their cage also - When it's time for nite nite and their little song, if Fergus is on the middle perch, he hops right up to the top by the time I've finished the second line of lyrics!

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

I agree with @Fergus Mom! I love following your threads, @GreenThing!

 

[GreenThing]

Has anyone told you that you have a talent for writing? I nearly spit out my coffee for real when I read this.

Aww I never saw this! Thank you.

 

[Miss_sj]

Awwww! I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about their power struggle (as long as they are happy and no one is hurt). My experience with budgies is that they will work it out between themselves, someone will be the winner , and that’s ok. I also find that they get over their anger and grievances very very quickly!