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cockatiel genetics question

Pegggggg

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I have a mated pair of cockatiels. The previous owner had no background on their parents. They have had 4 clutches so far. With 7 babies total. Each baby was a different mutation.

We have only kept 1 baby.. the lutino... because he was stunted... and has foot issues (so we spoiled him until we couldnt think of parting)

I am hoping that someone will be able to help me kinda reverse-identify the parents mutation based on the babies.

here are the parents - Buddy (M-Grey) and Bella (F-Pearl)
buddy 2020.jpg bella head.jpg mom and dad.jpg bella back.jpg

2019 babies

Cinnamon with yellow cheeks (sex unknown) pics @ 11 weeks...when he was rehomed @ 4mo. the cheeks had still not turned orange
yellow cheeked cinnamon 2019.jpg 2019 cinn 11 wks.jpg


Ugly Duckling -Lutino +?? (based on behavior, singing addiction and loss of pearling... we assume Male)
(had yellow Pearling when young... but lost all pearl and developed beautiful cinnamon markings)
1st pic 4mo old... other pics over 1yr old
2019 lutino pearl.jpg lutino 2020.jpg lutino wing.jpg

2020 babies-

1 Grey and 1 Pearl (who looked like a clone of the mother) -Genders unknown
pic @ 6 weeks.... they are 3 months old and have been rehomed (will find out from our friend that took the pearl later if he/she loses pearling..or if they test)

both 6wks -cropped.jpg

2 newest are only 2 weeks old (pics @ 10-11 days?)
one has grey tuft and other has yellow?
lil grey head.jpg lil yellow head.jpg

So what I am wondering... is based on genetics... having a cinnamon means that which parent has cinnamon? a male lutino with cinnamon would that mean that BOTH parents would have to be split for both?? and does that cinnamon patching also mean that one or both parents have pied in them somewhere? (no clue if pied is sex linked or what that would mean)

and what is up with having yellow cheeks instead of orange? is that another mutation? from who?

I would love to know which parent has which invisible mutation (split?) and what that will mean to being able to tell GENDER of the babies?

and why does little guy have a yellow tuft but grey wings coming in? lol

I was under the impression that I had a plain grey male and a plain pearl female... til we started seeing a lutino pearl that turned into lutino cinnamon pied?... and another with yellow cheeks .... at least we havent seen a white face yet.... lol

I know this post is long and has lots of pics to review.... but I would appreciate any help understanding how all this fits

@Monica
 

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sunnysmom

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Welcome to the forum. I will tag one of genetics experts. :) @Monica ?
 

Kiwi & Co.

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and what is up with having yellow cheeks instead of orange? is that another mutation? from who?
Yellow face is a mutation (as well as pastel face) but I don’t know a lot about them.

I was under the impression that I had a plain grey male and a plain pearl female
Buddy is also pied, and split for pearl if they had male pearl babies.

til we started seeing a lutino pearl that turned into lutino cinnamon pied?... and another with yellow cheeks .... at least we havent seen a white face yet.... lol
They both must be split for a lot of things, so their parents must have had a lot of different mutations too :eek:

@Tara81
 

Tara81

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Females cannot be split to cinnamon , pearl, or lutino. They either are or aren’t. (Sex linked mutation). Mom is a pearl and might be split to pied. Dad is a normal grey split to pied (yellow on top of head, and grey on face) , and is split to cinnamon and split to pearl. The first baby has pastel face I believe, which means one of the parents are split to pastel face (can’t tell which). Pastel face is a dominant mutation therefore only needs one parent to have the gene. Sex linked (Pearl, cinnamon, lutino)means females only need one gene from dad only, males need two genes (mom and dad). Recessive means both parents must have the gene (pied, yellow cheeked). Splits carry the gene but don’t show visually unless pied, like dad. Are you sure mom is the pearl and dad is the grey? I just find it odd dad didn’t get his yellow face, most split to pieds and greys would. I cannot say if the second baby was lutino or heavy pied, need photos with more light. If the second baby is heavy pied then it confirms mom is split to pied. If the second baby is lutino then it confirms dad is split to lutino and the baby must be female. I honestly think it’s a heavy pied but need need more photos. A lutino pearl wouldn’t show the pearls as grey, but as white instead I believe. (Very hard to see pearl in lutino). Here is a photo of a lutino pearl.
 

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Tara81

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Actually I think I was wrong about pastel faces, they are autosomal recessive, meaning they only show if both parents are pastel face or split, or one parent is whiteface split and one is pastel face split. It becomes a dominant visual gene only when whiteface is involved. That one is abit more confusing ;D . In other words, it means one parent has pastel face split, and the other could have pastel face split or whiteface split.
 

Tara81

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In conclusion dad is : normal grey split to pied, pearl, cinnamon
Dad might be : split to whiteface or pastel face
Mom is : pearl
Mom could be : split to pied, whiteface or pastel face
 

Tara81

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Buddy is also pied@Tara81
I think buddy is not pied, but split to pied (carried one pied gene, not two) as pied usually means they have a patch of color (white or yellow) on their body as well as their head/neck and usually at least 10% of their feathers.

split to pied will show yellow or white on their neck/face/spike but not on the rest of their body.

For example, my cockatiel is a split to pied. She has some yellow on her head. Her dad was pied and her mom looked just like Buddy. If my tiels mom, who looked just like buddy, was pied and not split, my tiel would have been pied. But, as you can see, she is clearly split, which means mom was a split and didn’t give her pied gene, but the normal grey gene instead ;) (which then dominated dads pied gene visuallly, giving her a split to pied from dad)
It was a 50/50 chance my bird would be pied. But mom gave the grey gene instead , too bad though because I loveeee the pied mutations they are so cute!
 
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Kiwi & Co.

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I think buddy is not pied, but split to pied (carried one pied gene, not two) as pied usually means they have a patch of color (white or yellow) on their body as well as their head/neck and usually at least 10% of their feathers.

split to pied will show yellow or white on their neck/face/spike but not on the rest of their body.

For example, my cockatiel is a split to pied. She has some yellow on her head. Her dad was pied and her mom looked just like Buddy. If my tiels mom, who looked just like buddy, was pied and not split, my tiel would have been pied. But, as you can see, she is clearly split, which means mom was a split and didn’t give her pied gene, but the normal grey gene instead ;) (which then dominated dads pied gene visuallly, giving her a split to pied from dad)
Thanks for the explanation! I'm trying to learn about tiel mutations (less of them than budgies lol) and they're still pretty confusing!
 

Tara81

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I’ll see if I can get the photo of my birds mom and dad one sec ;D
 

Tara81

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Here is my birbs parents dad whiteface pied, mom normally grey split to pied

4F60E95A-33CE-4C06-86D2-B5108D4EFA6E.jpeg

And here is my tiel normal grey split to pied (small bits of yellow in head and spike)

241D6087-547B-4AAF-AAB3-213951A35422.jpeg
 

Tara81

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and why does little guy have a yellow tuft but grey wings coming in? lol
He is most likely a pied or split to pied :) pied tiels have yellow or white feathers in random places.

could u show me some photos of dad in brighter light, the back of his head? It looks like it might be white, if it is, he is probably split to whiteface , which would make mom split to pastel face.
 

Tara81

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Thanks for the explanation! I'm trying to learn about tiel mutations (less of them than budgies lol) and they're still pretty confusing!
what’s even more confusing is crossover mutations in cockatiels ;D . Sex linked splits in a male can swap DNA up to 30% of the time to create multiple sex linked mutations. Example : Buddy is split to pearl and cinnamon. In theory , he can give pearl or cinnamon to his offspring, but not both. However, up to 30% of the time, the mutation can swap over to the other gene and create pearl cinnamon offspring. It only happens in male sperm . ;D

ah this explains it better.
 

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Kiwi & Co.

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what’s even more confusing is crossover mutations in cockatiels ;D . Sex linked splits in a male can swap DNA up to 30% of the time to create multiple sex linked mutations. Example : Buddy is split to pearl and cinnamon. In theory , he can give pearl or cinnamon to his offspring, but not both. However, up to 30% of the time, the mutation can swap over to the other gene and create pearl cinnamon offspring. It only happens in male sperm . ;D
And I thought that the lower number of colors would equal less confusing :confused: :roflmao:
 

Pegggggg

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Are you sure mom is the pearl and dad is the grey?
positive... not only do they mate regularly... but the pearl is the one that lays eggs

I cannot say if the second baby was lutino or heavy pied, need photos with more light...
definitely lutino.. red eyes from birth...

A lutino pearl wouldn’t show the pearls as grey but as white instead I believe. (Very hard to see pearl in lutino)
the pearls were not grey... they were yellow
at first the baby seemed just white... but as the feathers came in more... we could see yellow mixed in all over the back and chest...in a pearl pattern but hard to see...(much less obvious than the photo u showed) only obvious when light was shined on or outside in the sun... (the 1st pic when viewed on my phone shows the red eyes and the yellow clearly... but on the laptop it is hard to see)... and until the first molt the wings had small TAN segments...and were really pretty when the wings were spread.... after the first molt... the yellow went away and now there is alot more cinnamon


Females cannot be split to cinnamon , pearl, or lutino. They either are or aren’t. (Sex linked mutation)
If the second baby is lutino then it confirms dad is split to lutino and the baby must be female.
the mom is definitely not lutino or cinnamon.... so our Ugly Duckling MUST be female after all...
I had just assumed gender based on the loss of the yellow pearling...and how much she sings and wolf whistles and talks...she does portions of the Addams family...complete with clicks.....and loves to copy new whistles (via youtube since the only whistle i can do is the wolf one)... she wolf whistles or gives kisses every time she wants attention from me... and says 'hello' (tho hubby insists that she is saying 'UTOH' lol)

the more I discuss it... the more I am inclined to say that Ugly Duckling is a Lutino Pied Cinnamon (red eyes...primarily white with cinnamon patches)... and perhaps the 'pearling' was just yellow due to being lutino but maybe not ACTUAL pearls... if that makes sense

SO ... to summarize.... (please correct me if I am wrong)

Dad is Grey Pied split to lutino and split to cinnamon
Mom is Pearl and likely split to pastel or yellow face (since dad doesnt show and a grey would) (would mom need to be split to pied as well?)

and lutino babies would be female 100%
any babies with cinnamon would be female 100%
any babies pied or grey or pearl or yellowface could be either male or female

is there a rule on what the babies are 'split to'? or do you need to wait until they breed to tell? (like if the dad is pied all babies would be split to pied.. if mom is pearl... all babies would be split to pearl... or all female babies would be... or all male babies would be... etc etc... ) are there rules to determine this ahead of time?

is there anything else I missed?

would still love to hear from @Monica or anyone else with opinions
 

Tara81

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positive... not only do they mate regularly... but the pearl is the one that lays eggs



definitely lutino.. red eyes from birth...
I believe you that the female is the pearl. I just wanted to know if you were certain, as I haven't seen a split to pied normal grey male cockatiel keep a grey face :)

There are other mutations that give red eyes besides lutino. Need brighter photo :D

Fallows: The body color is a very pale cinnamon suffused with yellow, the face yellow and the eyes red.
 
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Pegggggg

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I think buddy is not pied, but split to pied (carried one pied gene, not two) as pied usually means they have a patch of color (white or yellow) on their body as well as their head/neck and usually at least 10% of their feathers.
We just decided to search Buddy for more Pied markings and so we had him spread out his wings looking for patches and we noticed that the area above his tail is obviously pied.. lol... we looked at each other and said "HOW did we NEVER notice that??" (altho wings cover it majority of the time)
buddy back 2020.jpg
 

Tara81

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Actually maybe it is a cinnamon lutino.. Man cinnamon Lutinos and fallows can look very similiar. This says the only way to tell is the eye color after it matures when they look so similiar !

 

Tara81

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We just decided to search Buddy for more Pied markings and so we had him spread out his wings looking for patches and we noticed that the area above his tail is obviously pied.. lol... we looked at each other and said "HOW did we NEVER notice that??" (altho wings cover it majority of the time)
View attachment 349552
Hey hey well then, he's a pied , that would explain the grey face still ! :D Poor birb getting all investigated hahaha
 
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