Chronic Egg Laying, could it be hormonal?

[MissLeigh]

My 5 year old parakeet, Malibu, has been laying an egg or two for the past two years. Since, this summer, it has been chronic. In late August, she prolapse, had the surgery and went on Lupron. She has been on lupron, but she still lays eggs, just less eggs. I have been giving her a calcium supplement, took away her mirrors, and kept the eggs in the cage. I bought Dummy eggs as well. I have bought her a new cage that she doesn't really like, and have two other cages as well. She plays in the large one and sleeps in the small one at night. The new cage was to phase out the small cage, since it is very old. But, she has a foot issue that made the foot go limp a bit. The vet thinks it may be a benign tumor, but then again said that would have made her infertile which obviously, she isn't. So, the new cage isn't her favorite for some reason. I have switched around her food dishes and perches. I don't allow her to sit on my shoulder, though this is really hard because she loves that, so I am in the process of trying to stop that. The vet says she sees me as her mate, so I think I am a big problem. I recently moved back home, so my mom takes care of her during the day, and she goes crazy for me when I come home from work. I have tried to talk softly and such because that seems to make her crazy if I talk loud and call her pet names and such. I think it was making her hormones worse.

I am suspicious of her diet because I read soy increases hormone production. She has eaten Harrision/s since she was a baby. But, I am concerned about the soy. So, I got her Totally Organics last month. She doesn't like it! I mix the two together and she will pick out the Harrison's. I am very strict with ingredients, and buy organic for myself a lot, so all the foods I found either aren't organic or have vitamin supplements, soy or bee pollen. I read that bee pollen increases hormone production, so she doesn't need that.

She sleeps about 12-14 hours a night. Well, she is in the dark that long. But, even though we got a room darkening shade in the room and blankets over her cage, the room isn't perfectly dark. The vet says I don't need to get obsessive, that it's probably just fine. But, the room gets cold in the winter. I don't know of any space heaters without teflon and I don't trust those window insulators because I don't know what the plastic is made of or if it has some chemicals in it. So, now she sleeps in my mom's room on cold nights. The problem with her room is outside noises or light from the hallway, though it is still really dark.

I bought her a play gym and tried organic frozen green peas and butternut squash. She had the veggies tonight and loved them. She doesn't like too much veggies, maybe that's why she doesn't like the Totally Organics pellets. I am try to regularly feed kale and arugula, but she isn't too much of a fan.

That long post is to ask, is it possible it's hormonal and is there something she can eat or something I should do or not to to decrease the hormones? Is there a brand of food I am missing? I researched Dr. Harvey's, Roudybush, Totally Organics, I am sure there is more I forgot right now.

I don't know what to do. I feel that the problem is me. And possibly her food increasing her hormone production.

Any suggestions??

Thanks!

 

[Mizzely]

If she is only eating Harrison's, I would cut that by about 50% and add in some seeds. that would help get her off some of the soy if that is causing an issue. Totally Organics does have a couple of seed mixes you could try with her. I would push more veggies too; if you have to, only give her veggies for the first couple of hours of the day before giving her seeds/pellets.

 

[GuineaPigster]

Where do you pet her? Depending on where, she might be seeing your lovIng scritches as an invitation to mate.

 

[CheekyBeaks]

If Personally wouldn't recommend adding seeds to the diet, I increase or add seed when breeding time approaches and I want them to lay. She won't need to excess fats if you don't want her to breed.
If your pellets have a high nut content, or high protein content I would look for a lower protein pellet, and one that also doesn't have corn/Maize as a major ingredient. I think I have read other posts here somewhere where members with birds that have been chronic egg layers changed pellets and the new brand helped, I can't remember the details but it would be worth doing a search.
Stick to fresh leafy greens, carrots, peppers, apple, and avoid feeding high energy foods like corn and banana, nuts, seed etc...

 

[MissLeigh]

If she is only eating Harrison's, I would cut that by about 50% and add in some seeds. that would help get her off some of the soy if that is causing an issue. Totally Organics does have a couple of seed mixes you could try with her. I would push more veggies too; if you have to, only give her veggies for the first couple of hours of the day before giving her seeds/pellets.

Good idea about mixing Harrison's with seeds. I have an order of Totally Organics Seed mix coming from Amazon. It should be here next week. I was going to serve the seeds separately, but mixing in is a good idea! I am not giving her a lot of seeds. She actually only had maybe a few days of seeds in her whole life. I used to use them as a treat once in awhile. I bought the mix because it has organic pumpkin seeds and I think the Omegas will be good for her. Since she loved the peas and squash I am going to give that to her in the mornings and push the kale and other greens at night. She wil nibble at it a bit.

Thanks!

 

[MissLeigh]

If Personally wouldn't recommend adding seeds to the diet, I increase or add seed when breeding time approaches and I want them to lay. She won't need to excess fats if you don't want her to breed.
If your pellets have a high nut content, or high protein content I would look for a lower protein pellet, and one that also doesn't have corn/Maize as a major ingredient. I think I have read other posts here somewhere where members with birds that have been chronic egg layers changed pellets and the new brand helped, I can't remember the details but it would be worth doing a search.
Stick to fresh leafy greens, carrots, peppers, apple, and avoid feeding high energy foods like corn and banana, nuts, seed etc...

Oh no, so no seeds? I ordered them a few days ago I am going to search for that article. She is eating the regular Harrison's food, not the High Potency. I have been researching for new food without end.....ugh

Thanks!

 

[JLcribber]

There is no real cure for a chronic egg laying hen. You have already said that you've tried the Lupron route without real success. So she is truly a chronic layer.

As already mentioned that a diet with too much protein will keep them in "condition". You need to lean out her diet so it's more like "off season" and not the abundance of in season. The same thing goes with her environment. It needs to be a little "harsher" (more open, in a busier place, nothing cozy), changing the cage around, moving the cage around. In general just keep her a little less comfortable. Probably the best thing you can do for her is to increase her fitness level because a fit bird has an easier time of handling all physical ailments.

Having said that you can not stop the hormone cycle. If the bird comes from a bloodline that is prone to chronic egg laying you can't change that.

 

[MissLeigh]

There is no real cure for a chronic egg laying hen. You have already said that you've tried the Lupron route without real success. So she is truly a chronic layer.

As already mentioned that a diet with too much protein will keep them in "condition". You need to lean out her diet so it's more like "off season" and not the abundance of in season. The same thing goes with her environment. It needs to be a little "harsher" (more open, in a busier place, nothing cozy), changing the cage around, moving the cage around. In general just keep her a little less comfortable. Probably the best thing you can do for her is to increase her fitness level because a fit bird has an easier time of handling all physical ailments.

Having said that you can not stop the hormone cycle. If the bird comes from a bloodline that is prone to chronic egg laying you can't change that.

How do I get less protein? Is there a known food or just increase veggies? I read about the more exercise and my play gym came today She used to have one but she wouldn't play on it. So, I got rid of it. Now, trying that idea again.

 

[JLcribber]

Way, way less pellets IMO. Lots of greens/reds/orange veggies and fruit if she'll eat it. Chia seed is very good (lots of omega 3s) and can also be sprouted which is even better.

The play stand is a good idea and a start but to truly increase her fitness level to where it will actually be effective means full speed sustained flight. For a small bird like a parakeet that would be about a 20 foot (longer if possible) flight with a full turn and fly back.

 

[MissLeigh]

Way, way less pellets IMO. Lots of greens/reds/orange veggies and fruit if she'll eat it. Chia seed is very good (lots of omega 3s) and can also be sprouted which is even better.

The play stand is a good idea and a start but to truly increase her fitness level to where it will actually be effective means full speed sustained flight. For a small bird like a parakeet that would be about a 20 foot (longer if possible) flight with a full turn and fly back.

okay, the mix that I ordered from Amazon has pumpkin seeds in it, which has Omega 3. I saw a seed mix tonight that has Chia in it but I decided to try the other I already bought first. She loves to fly around the room. My mom takes her out at least twice a day for 30 minutes at a time. Then, when I come home she comes out. Plus, her cage is HUGE. She likes to fly from her food dishes, located on opposite sides. She loved the squash. and she will eat carrots as well. I am going to get her organic carrots tomorrow. Thanks! I wish she would eat the Totally Organics, but she just won't.

 

[clawnz]

An interesting subject!
I agree with most of what John has had to say.
But disagree with what some others have had to say.
Fresh veg to me says it is breeding season.
If you think about it like this.
Soft foods summer (Breeding Season)
Grains and seeds (winter)
Pellets?

Pellets!
Well there are not many on the market that are not bulked up with Soy or ground corn.
And I am not into feeding my birds anything that has no value, or at best very little.
So I feel seeds has to be the better option to convince her it is winter.
And my research indicates that Budgie along with Cockatiels do fairly well on a all seed diet. More so than an all pellet diet.
This is not to say do this. Other foods are very important to any bird.

Whatever you do you have to remember it is her body that is in control not her. And that may help you out smart her.

Mind you I am not sure you are talking about a budgie here? So all this my not be relevant.

 

[GuineaPigster]

An interesting subject!
I agree with most of what John has had to say.
But disagree with what some others have had to say.
Fresh veg to me says it is breeding season.
If you think about it like this.
Soft foods summer (Breeding Season)
Grains and seeds (winter)
Pellets?

Pellets!
Well there are not many on the market that are not bulked up with Soy or ground corn.
And I am not into feeding my birds anything that has no value, or at best very little.
So I feel seeds has to be the better option to convince her it is winter.
And my research indicates that Budgie along with Cockatiels do fairly well on a all seed diet. More so than an all pellet diet.
This is not to say do this. Other foods are very important to any bird.

Whatever you do you have to remember it is her body that is in control not her. And that may help you out smart her.

Mind you I am not sure you are talking about a budgie here? So all this my not be relevant.

Malibu is a budgie.

 

[Anne & Gang]

as John says, some birds are just chronic and no matter what you do, they continue to lay. Just keep following what you are following and hope for the best. We have a chronic egg layer here and we have tried everything short of a hysterectomy..but Sam continues to be very very healthy with no problems. We pray a lot.

 

[Lady Jane]

Chronic Egg Laying

Author: Dr Greg Burkett, Board Certified Avian Veterinarian

Chronic egg laying is a very common problem in cockatiels, lovebirds, and budgies; and is seen in other species of pet birds including macaws, cockatoos, amazons, and African greys. This problem can begin in your bird as early as nine months or as late as several years of age. The most common age range is from one to three years.

The process of producing and laying an egg is an incredible feat of nature. A bird utilizes various proteins and minerals to build a container that can sustain a life for several days and up to several weeks. Within this container all of the necessary functions of life are carried out - eating, drinking, sleeping, waste disposal, breathing, growth and development, and so on. This is amazing to say the least!

The process of producing and laying an egg is stimulated by many factors. Day length, food availability, mate behavior, rainfall, competition for nesting sites, and many other factors can stimulate hens to lay an egg. It is not necessary that an egg be fertilized before it can be lain. In fact, a mate does not even need to be present for a female to lay eggs.

The shell of an egg is made primarily of calcium. The calcium comes from calcium stores within the bird's body. The bones and muscles provide nearly all of the calcium required to shell an egg. The calcium that is lost in forming the shell needs to be replaced so the body can continue to function properly. Calcium is primarily needed for muscle contractions and building strong bones. In the case of chronic egg laying, calcium stores are depleted and the body is unable to function properly. The condition is known as hypocalcemia. The most common problem in egg laying females associated with hypocalcemia is egg binding. With calcium at a low level the uterine muscles are unable to contract and push the egg out. Hypocalcemia can also cause seizure-like activity and brittle bones, which can be easily fractured.

During the laying cycle birds will begin holding their droppings for an extended period of time. This behavior is related to keeping the nest clean and free of poop. Often the bird will release large, loose, foul smelling, and discolored droppings. The odor is due to the presence of bacteria and yeast in the droppings. It is important to prevent excessive egg laying, since it can lead to many health problems. The most important factor in preventing health-related problems is nutrition. It is vital to be sure that your bird is on a complete and balanced diet. No diet is better or more complete than a formulated or pelleted diet. Pellets offer all essential nutrients in the correct ratios. Seeds are very inadequate in preventing problems related to excessive egg laying. Seeds have no calcium, almost no phosphorous, no vitamin A, and no vitamin D; all of which are essential in calcium absorption and utilization. Seeds are also deficient in essential amino acids (protein) and are unable to replace the protein lost in forming the inside of the egg (the yolk, albumin, and fetal membranes).

The first step in treating chronic egg laying is to put your bird on a complete diet. A bird that is on an balanced diet is in little danger of the health problems associated with chronic egg laying. The next step is to have your bird examined by an avian veterinarian for a complete work up, including exam, blood work, cultures, and all necessary treatments. Your veterinarian will be looking for bacterial and yeast infections related to holding in the poops, signs of poor nutrition and stress, and clinical signs of calcium deficiency. The next step is to decrease the amount of light your bird receives during the day. You want to provide them with a maximum of 10 hours of light per day. This will help prevent hormone release that leads to egg production.

Birds will lay one egg every other day with an average total number of up to 5 or 6 eggs. When your bird does lay an egg, you should leave it in the cage. If you remove it you will stimulate production of more eggs.

Finally, you should remove anything that may be stimulating breeding behavior. Dark, confining spaces such as shoeboxes, bags, cabinets and other places can serve as a nest. Disallow association with such places. Don't stroke your bird on the back, especially during her breeding period. Leave the grates on the bottom of the cage to give an unsuitable place to lay and sit on eggs. On rare occasions, females will chose a favorite toy or perch for masturbating. This item should be removed it your bird exhibits this behavior. Other changes may need to be made depending on your bird's environment and play habits.

A mate is not a solution for the chronic egg layer. Mates will only perpetuate the problem, not solve it. Your bird may become less concerned about you, bond to the other bird, want to reproduce, and you will lose the nice pet you have always had.

We, as responsible owners, should work to prevent excessive egg laying. Prevention can be accomplished by controlling these stimuli and providing balanced nutrition to our pet birds, which is critical in reducing the risk of secondary disease associated with chronic egg laying.

In summary, improve the diet, decrease the photo period, leave the eggs in the cage, remove any breeding stimulation that may be contributing to the problem, and see your avian veterinarian for a physical exam, diagnostics, and treatments.

 

[MissLeigh]

An interesting subject!
I agree with most of what John has had to say.
But disagree with what some others have had to say.
Fresh veg to me says it is breeding season.
If you think about it like this.
Soft foods summer (Breeding Season)
Grains and seeds (winter)
Pellets?

Pellets!
Well there are not many on the market that are not bulked up with Soy or ground corn.
And I am not into feeding my birds anything that has no value, or at best very little.
So I feel seeds has to be the better option to convince her it is winter.
And my research indicates that Budgie along with Cockatiels do fairly well on a all seed diet. More so than an all pellet diet.
This is not to say do this. Other foods are very important to any bird.

Whatever you do you have to remember it is her body that is in control not her. And that may help you out smart her.

Mind you I am not sure you are talking about a budgie here? So all this my not be relevant.

I have spent hours, hours, hours, researching pellets and all we have are bad ones, ones with soy or ones with bee pollen. And I read that bee pollen helps produce more hormones in the body, so I want to stay away from that too. And the only, ONLY pellet I found that passed all of my tests was Totally Organics. And my bird won't touch it. I have tried to mix it in or give it only to her and she would rather starve. I say she takes after me since I fight to eat my veggies as well. So, about to research bee pollen to see exactly how bad or good it is.

 

[GuineaPigster]

She is lucky to have you.
What did you think of Roudybush?

 

[MissLeigh]

She is lucky to have you.
What did you think of Roudybush?

I didn't like it. I checked it out at the per store today. It contains soybean meal, like the third ingredient or so. I stopped reading the list after that. I am researching bee pollen online now.....

 

[JLcribber]

Bee pollen has a lot of protein in it. Not really something you want to feed a lot of or any to a bird that is already having egg laying issues. It is more of a supplement you would add to food as a booster and not an actual source of food.

Your not going to find a pellet that only has the ingredients you want in them. Roudybush, Harrison's and Zupreem are not bad products. What your failing to consider when rejecting them as food for your bird is that they are "formulated" with balance in mind (crude protein, fat, vitamins, etc). The proper balance and ratios of food and the nutrients in food is what's truly important when considering diet. Too much or not enough of any one thing is not only NOT good but it also affects the other things they eat because all these things (vitamins, minerals, protein, fat etc) rely on the other things in the proper proportion in order to work and be utilized.

Changing/improving/altering your birds diet is good and certainly couldn't hurt but it is not the root of your hens problem. She has become a chronic layer whether it's in her lineage or it was developed and diet is only one part of the problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[clawnz]

It is true that Chronic egg laying is not just about diet. But can be a big part of it. Bringing the body into condition.

Quote:
It is vital to be sure that your bird is on a complete and balanced diet. No diet is better or more complete than a formulated or pelleted diet. Pellets offer all essential nutrients in the correct ratios. Seeds are very inadequate in preventing problems related to excessive egg laying. Seeds have no calcium, almost no phosphorous, no vitamin A, and no vitamin D; all of which are essential in calcium absorption and utilization. Seeds are also deficient in essential amino acids (protein) and are unable to replace the protein lost in forming the inside of the egg (the yolk, albumin, and fetal membranes). Quote

This has erroneous errors. What is a complete balanced diet? And where in any pellet mix is the variation that is seasonal?
Add up to 80% contents is junk. and the other 20% maybe artificial man made supplements!
It is true one should not just feed seeds to any bird at any time.

What is a good varied diet? This we may never know! But the key word here has to be varied. Again where is the variation in any pellet mix?
To me this is changing things out that are in season, or adding things when I feel they need it. Even with their seed mix, I still add other seeds, like hulled oats, Pumpkin seeds, wheat, flax, and others. They get sprouts which are far better value than any man made puke. They are good with the veges. And get all manner of treats like natural things from the wild.

Back to egg laying.
Yes it is very true some birds do become chronic egg laying machines.
WHY?
Lets start with the breeders. They could be to blame! Why do I say this? Simple! They select birds that lay eggs. So they breed these known egg layers. Right!
If you notice it is with the smaller birds we see most situations of chronic egg laying.
I feel I can talk about egg laying as I have been there and dealt with it in the end.
How? Flooding with dummy eggs.
Some will be aware of what I went through with my mated bonded pairs of Cockatiels.
I went there with Lupron just to get them over the season the first time, and after the first round of injections wore off they were at it again. over 32 eggs from two girls in one season.
My guys are free flighted, so a lot of the things one can try were not an option.
Knocking them out of their comfort zone is another good way. Not that I agree with it.

I have now had two years with no eggs, so would claim to have cracked it. And I have 3x males and 3x females.

 

[MissLeigh]

It is true that Chronic egg laying is not just about diet. But can be a big part of it. Bringing the body into condition.

Quote:
It is vital to be sure that your bird is on a complete and balanced diet. No diet is better or more complete than a formulated or pelleted diet. Pellets offer all essential nutrients in the correct ratios. Seeds are very inadequate in preventing problems related to excessive egg laying. Seeds have no calcium, almost no phosphorous, no vitamin A, and no vitamin D; all of which are essential in calcium absorption and utilization. Seeds are also deficient in essential amino acids (protein) and are unable to replace the protein lost in forming the inside of the egg (the yolk, albumin, and fetal membranes). Quote

This has erroneous errors. What is a complete balanced diet? And where in any pellet mix is the variation that is seasonal?
Add up to 80% contents is junk. and the other 20% maybe artificial man made supplements!
It is true one should not just feed seeds to any bird at any time.

What is a good varied diet? This we may never know! But the key word here has to be varied. Again where is the variation in any pellet mix?
To me this is changing things out that are in season, or adding things when I feel they need it. Even with their seed mix, I still add other seeds, like hulled oats, Pumpkin seeds, wheat, flax, and others. They get sprouts which are far better value than any man made puke. They are good with the veges. And get all manner of treats like natural things from the wild.

Back to egg laying.
Yes it is very true some birds do become chronic egg laying machines.
WHY?
Lets start with the breeders. They could be to blame! Why do I say this? Simple! They select birds that lay eggs. So they breed these known egg layers. Right!
If you notice it is with the smaller birds we see most situations of chronic egg laying.
I feel I can talk about egg laying as I have been there and dealt with it in the end.
How? Flooding with dummy eggs.
Some will be aware of what I went through with my mated bonded pairs of Cockatiels.
I went there with Lupron just to get them over the season the first time, and after the first round of injections wore off they were at it again. over 32 eggs from two girls in one season.
My guys are free flighted, so a lot of the things one can try were not an option.
Knocking them out of their comfort zone is another good way. Not that I agree with it.

I have now had two years with no eggs, so would claim to have cracked it. And I have 3x males and 3x females.

Yes, I have bought dummy eggs, only 6 and she did sit on them. It was weird, she even separated some of them and her real eggs, like she thought some were good and the others bad. I just read an article last night about overcrowding the cage with Dummy Eggs. I was about to buy a food with Bee Pollen in it until I read John's post above. But, now that you remind me about the eggs, gonna go buy a lot of those. And the company is nearby so I got them in two days. I still would like to change her food, but now bee pollen is bad, so I am not sure again But, about the eggs, yes!