Canine Behavior interpretation?

[Sharpie]

I was wondering what you all think. The first vid is my cat and female dog, Amber. They've been doing this for about two and a half years, and I'd like to fix it... but I don't know how. If she's in a training session and focused on me, she doesn't usually even notice the cat. You may have to turn up the volume, the camera doesn't pick up her growling well.

Then, here she is with me scratching her. I can't tell if she likes it, or if she'd really like me to stop. She does this the most at home or when she's excited and around people she knows. She doesn't tend to do it with strangers. So far the trainers I've worked with have just commented that she's vocal. And she is, all the time. Barking, howling, whining, etc. Sometimes she tucks her tail while she growls, but then if you stop, she jumps about and barks and grabs a toy to play or comes back for more.

Interpretations? Suggestions? I got her as an 8 month old severely neglected rescue and she's 5 now, and I still don't get it.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

In the first video you are talking about the dog lying down right?

In both videos it looked like resource guarding to me. In the first video (the dog lying down) eyes go hard and it looks like she is guarding her space as the cat walks by. This dog is not comfortable with the cat going by. Also, look at the feet of the dog lying down. They are tight and curled under even though lying down. Yes, I see this ALL the time in client dogs and in my own dogs. I look at feet a lot as they tell alot about the emotional state of the dog.

In the second video, it looks like she is resource guarding the person petting her from the cat as it walks by or the other dog. I see this ALL the time as well. In this video the vocalization goes from a low, deep growl to a moan and changes in quality to me.

I would like to see more video, because in both videos there is another dog right there. In the first one though the dog looks like she is resource guarding her space.

 

[thebirdnerds]

In the first video you are talking about the dog lying down right?

In both videos it looked like resource guarding to me. In the first video (the dog lying down) eyes go hard and it looks like she is guarding her space as the cat walks by. This dog is not comfortable with the cat going by. Also, look at the feet of the dog lying down. They are tight and curled under even though lying down. Yes, I see this ALL the time in client dogs and in my own dogs. I look at feet a lot as they tell alot about the emotional state of the dog.

In the second video, it looks like she is resource guarding the person petting her from the cat as it walks by or the other dog. I see this ALL the time as well. In this video the vocalization goes from a low, deep growl to a moan and changes in quality to me.

I would like to see more video, because in both videos there is another dog right there. In the first one though the dog looks clearly

You are amazing Viki I love your understanding of dog behavior it is wonderful!
Dizzy is doing a tad better by the way...but we are also in Florida away from the source of the problem. I will be working hard with him.

 

[Sharpie]

I was hoping you'd comment, Vicki! Here's another. Topaz is in his kennel in the kitchen and the cat's locked away in the bathroom.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I was hoping you'd comment, Vicki! Here's another. Topaz is in his kennel in the kitchen and the cat's locked away in the bathroom.

My pleasure It does not look like just "talking" to me. There definitely seems to be some conflict. These are my questions for you. How long has she been doing this? Ever since you had her?

In this video watch the eyes. The eyelids look pretty soft until you reach the middle of her neck and then they get hard and she starts growling. I think she isn't comfortable with the rubbing, at least not when it gets to her neck in this one.

If the behavior is new I would have a complete medical work up done to rule out a medical problem. If it has always gone on I would ask if it has changed at all, if you have tried to modify the behavior, what have you done, etc. If it has always gone on I would desensitize her to the petting and gentle handling.

The toy grabbing may be a sort of displacement behavior when she is in conflict.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

You are amazing Viki I love your understanding of dog behavior it is wonderful!
Dizzy is doing a tad better by the way...but we are also in Florida away from the source of the problem. I will be working hard with him.

Awww, that's so nice of you to say It is my passion and I work really hard at continuing my education of it.

I'm glad Dizzy is doing a little better

 

[JLcribber]

Astute observations and analysis Vicki!! Your dogs are very lucky to have you!!

 

[GG.]

thanks Vickie - I watched those clips before and after your posts and learned a lot!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Astute observations and analysis Vicki!! Your dogs are very lucky to have you!!

Thank you I am even more lucky to have them

thanks Vickie - I watched those clips before and after your posts and learned a lot!

If you want me to get really geeky.....going back to the first video. Watch the dog lying down, just after the growl there is a tongue flick (stress signal) and watch the dog standing up, he clearly gets nervous and starts trying to diffuse the situation by blinking and looking away. I'll admit it, I am a behavior geek and I love watching video of behavior

 

[Sharpie]

It does not look like just "talking" to me. There definitely seems to be some conflict. These are my questions for you. How long has she been doing this? Ever since you had her?

That's what I've always thought- but no one's ever really believed me and told me not to worry about it (through three obedience classes and two agility, three trainers together). She's done this the entire time we've had her. When we first got her, you couldn't touch her- she'd run away, so NO idea what sort of early experiences she had.

If it has always gone on I would ask if it has changed at all, if you have tried to modify the behavior, what have you done, etc. If it has always gone on I would desensitize her to the petting and gentle handling.

Medically, there's nothing wrong with her so far as anyone can tell. She's a fairly reactive dog who picks up on things FAST and behaves better when we're in training for something (anything!) She's smart and has endless energy, she's also ball crazy.

My family (who she lived with up until 2.5 years ago) thought it was just funny or weird and my mom would get her going and called it 'purring.' I have mostly ignored it and avoided it- I really only pet her head, cheeks, under her neck, and her butt since those elicit less reaction. I cuddle Topaz when I need dog time.

She tolerates very slow, light petting fairly well, but if you treat her like a normal dog, you get the growling. I've done some clicker work with petting her and got to the point where I could pet her three or four times without any negative reaction, and there was some carryover between 'working' and 'relaxing' behavior. Part of the trouble is, if she's working/training/focusing, she doesn't react the same way and is much more tolerant. Same if we're out on walks, etc or there's something interesting to smell or look at. Distractions make her react less to the petting? I'm not sure how to condition the relaxed behavior when doing training changes her mindset so much. Just repetition?

The toy grabbing may be a sort of displacement behavior when she is in conflict.

That makes sense to me.

I've always wondered if a) she just doesn't like touch so I should just avoid it b) something about it makes her anxious so I should try to change it or c) if dogs can get hyperaesthesia like cats and actually find touch uncomfortable

I'd like to get her to be less space-guardy with the cat (I thought that was what the issue was, but wanted another set of eyes) or just more relaxed around him in general, but not sure how to go about it. I taught her to 'go get the cat' and she'll go up to him, and be near him happily when it's an activity, but not when it's just hanging out time.

Here's a kind of scary clip. She looks like she's going to eat me. She chooses to start barking rather than eating people though, thankfully (especially for my family. Ugh.) YouTube - MVI 1113 I do not normally pet her like this, because I KNOW she reacts this way, but I wanted to get a clip of it. Actually, for all the videos, I was pushing her so that I could get it on tape...

 

[BraveheartDogs]

That's what I've always thought- but no one's ever really believed me and told me not to worry about it (through three basic obedience classes and two agility, three trainers together). She's done this the entire time we've had her. When we first got her, you couldn't touch her- she'd run away, so NO idea what sort of early experiences she had.

Ok, good. If she has always done it then it's not usually medical and you have ruled out medical problem. The fact that she couldn't be touched or handled at all initially tells us alot. I am getting the feeling that touch is aversive to her. Honestly, the other trainers just may have not known. I know a lot of trainers who can train but aren't as skilled at reading body language and interpreting it.

Medically, there's nothing wrong with her so far as anyone can tell. She's a fairly reactive dog who picks up on things FAST and behaves better when we're in training for something (anything!) She's smart and has endless energy, she's also ball crazy.

You probably know this but I will tell you anyway in case you don't When the cognitive (learning) side of the brain is working it is more difficult for the limbic (emotional) side to work (and the other way around). This is why they tell people not to try and talk when they are angry. You can't do it. When she is working she is less emotional. I have an extremely reactive, highly fearful cattle dog, if I engage him BEFORE he goes off, I have him, if he goes off first, I can't get him back. I spend A LOT of time scanning the environment and being hyper vigilant to keep him from exploding.

My family (who she lived with up until 2.5 years ago) thought it was just funny or weird and my mom would get her going and called it 'purring.' I have mostly ignored it and really only pet her head, cheeks, under her neck, and her butt since those elicit less reaction. I cuddle Topaz when I need dog time.

Not so good, as I don't think it was "purring" I love that you have been able to identify the specific areas that trigger the growling. Thank you for getting the cuddles from Topaz as so many owners would try to force her to be something and someone she isn't

She tolerates very slow, light petting fairly well, but if you treat her like a normal dog, you get the growling. I've done some clicker work with petting her and got to the point where I could pet her three or four times without any negative reaction, and there was some carryover between 'working' and 'relaxing' behavior.

I like this, I might try this too. You could also do some straight classical conditioning where you pair the gentle petting with something HIGHLY reinforcing like very high value food. You could also use the ball but I wouldn't do it at the same time as the ball may create some play growling. But, you could do a few pets and then throw the ball so that the petting becomes predictive of the ball. I would use food too if you can. I would do this with the very light petting that she tolerates until the gentle petting creates a very relaxed, happy face and loose body before going to harder touch.

Part of the trouble is, if she's working/training/focusing, she doesn't react the same way and is much more tolerant. Same if we're out on walks, etc or there's something interesting to smell or look at. Distractions make her react less to the petting? I'm not sure how to condition the relaxed behavior when doing training changes her mindset so much. Just repetition?

It could very well be that if she is uncomfortable in the environment she just simply has "bigger fish to fry" in that she is watching the environment and becomes less vigilant with you. If she is uncomfortable with the environment and you see any signs of stress or anxiety I would not pet AT ALL because she has enough to worry about. However, if she is relaxed and happy outside then pairing that and some food with petting might be a good idea.

That makes sense to me.

I've always wondered if a) she just doesn't like touch so I should just avoid it b) something about it makes her anxious so I should try to change it or c) if dogs can get hyperaesthesia like cats and actually find touch uncomfortable

I think that she doesn't like touch. I think it is aversive to her or at least makes her uncomfortable. I would desensitize her to it, very slowly, little bits at a time paired with something she LOVES.

I'd like to get her to be less space-guardy with the cat (I thought that was what the issue was, but wanted another set of eyes) or just more relaxed around him in general, but not sure how to go about it. I taught her to 'go get the cat' and she'll go up to him, and be near him happily when it's an activity, but not when it's just hanging out time.

More desensitization and counterconditioning. The cat means good things happen for her

Here's a kind of scary clip. She looks like she's going to eat me. She chooses to start barking rather than eating people though, thankfully (especially for my family. Ugh.) YouTube - MVI 1113 I do not normally pet her like this, because I KNOW she reacts this way, but I wanted to get a clip of it.

Yes, very scary video Multiple tongue flicks, whale eye, stiff body....

The great news is that 1) she has a compassionate and skilled owner who cares about her and what is going on with her and that 2) she has always chosen not to take it a step further with a bite. I always tell people with growling dogs to thank their dogs because growling is information that tells us that the dog is not comfortable. If a dog doesn't growl, or worse has been punished for growling, then they don't growl, they bite and that is much more difficult to modify

 

[Sharpie]

Thank you for getting the cuddles from Topaz as so many owners would try to force her to be something and someone she isn't

She's my smart training dog who loves to sniff out her ball in deep grass, try new things, learn anything I can teach, play and run herself into heatstroke if I'd let her dog. I know she will do anything I ask of her. She's a silly, vocal (in a good way too ) girl. She's my heartdog, and the kind of dog who would die trying to please me. She also refrains from eating the cat, the birds, and other dogs, which is more than many dogs do.

I think I can get my cuddles elsewhere if need be. Topaz and the cat both want nothing more out of life than to be a lap critters, so somehow I manage. She does cuddle (sort of) in a White Fang sort of way- she'll smoosh her head under my chin or my arm and let me pet her nose and the top of her head or lean against my legs or feet from time to time. Or if I'm sitting in the bathroom. No idea what's up with that, but if I'm in the bathroom, then pets are (more) okay.

Thank you for your input. I had sort of given up on working with her on this just because I felt like maybe it was all just in my head or something. It's tough to keep going with something when you're not even sure where your starting, where you want to go, or how to get there. My training 'goal' would be for her just to accept two or three normal pets in a relaxed home setting without getting stressed or wound up by it. And to get through a day without having to worry so much about the silly cat!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Thank you for getting the cuddles from Topaz as so many owners would try to force her to be something and someone she isn't

She's my smart training dog who loves to sniff out her ball in deep grass, try new things, learn anything I can teach, play and run herself into heatstroke if I'd let her dog. I know she will do anything I ask of her. She's a silly, vocal (in a good way too ) girl. She's my heartdog, and the kind of dog who would die trying to please me. She also refrains from eating the cat, the birds, and other dogs, which is more than many dogs do.

I think I can get my cuddles elsewhere if need be. Topaz and the cat both want nothing more out of life than to be a lap critters, so somehow I manage. She does cuddle (sort of) in a White Fang sort of way- she'll smoosh her head under my chin or my arm and let me pet her nose and the top of her head or lean against my legs or feet from time to time. Or if I'm sitting in the bathroom. No idea what's up with that, but if I'm in the bathroom, then pets are (more) okay.

Thank you for your input. I had sort of given up on working with her on this just because I felt like maybe it was all just in my head or something. It's tough to keep going with something when you're not even sure where your starting, where you want to go, or how to get there. My training 'goal' would be for her just to accept two or three normal pets in a relaxed home setting without getting stressed or wound up by it. And to get through a day without having to worry so much about the silly cat!

I think it's really great that you have a really solid training relationship with her. I know that you use +R and that in and of itself is good for her issues. I would do your "white fang" petting if it seems reinforcing for her, I love that. If she were mine I would do some D&CC for the petting just to see if you could teach her to be more comfortable with it, starting with the places she enjoys it that you mentioned. She sounds like a really interesting individual. It's great that she found you. Those kinds of dogs are incredibly fun to train but can be challenging for most people to live with I think.

I wanted to mention too that if you get a gut feeling, go with it. It sounds like you knew it your heart that she didn't really like it and I think you are right. Sometimes you can't put your finger on WHY but you know something is there.