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Biting is out of control, need advice.

Snowghost

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@Rain Bow That is a very interesting article! I know Paco watches everything I do, I didn't know they were that sensitive to our feelings. Wonder if he knows I'm exhausted? I'm on my feet all day and the crazy hours are insane. I like routine and there is nothing routine about my work schedule. I can't wait til I get used to this or if that will ever happen. I will never complain about working in an office again.
 

Rain Bow

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I read an article when Buddy came & it wasn't a scientific one. Just someone's opinion.

She was disvussing the different ways a Parrot see's compared to us & other animals & she said something to the effect of:

Parrots see in color, they have the ability to see very small things from large distances & they see different fluorescents. Why can't they see a humans Aura? It was really well thought out & communicated as a theroy.

Here's an article all about Grey's you might enjoy about their anatomy & such. It's long but pretty basic.

 

Snowghost

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Oh I believe that. One time something near the ceiling freaked him out. I have no idea what it was. But he was spooked and stared up at the ceiling light. I wonder if they are like horses, I've ridden horses and they spook at the silliest things, water puddles, a big rock or imaginary gremlins in the grass.
 

Snowghost

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Finally a day off after 6 days. I looked at target training. Paco is terrified of sticks. That leads me to my next question, he still trembles when I get close, we are coming up to our year mark end of March. Shouldn't he be used to me by now? He doesn't tremble when he is in his cage. When I come home now he chirps and slowly spreads his wings. One at a time and stretches out his foot. I had my Amazon for so long I forget how long it took to calm her down. She could fly, Paco has his wing feathers, sadly he does not know he can fly, he was cage bound for the 19 years of his life. Now he won't get out of his cage in the morning, he seems happy to sit on one foot. I bribed him with a peanut, (human grade) now before everyone preaches about peanuts, I know many feel they are nasty. My Amazon got 2 a day for 25 years. I don't think sunflower seeds are much better, he will sometimes eat a almond, depends on his mood. Not sure what other "treat" I can use. His taste varies. While he munched on a peanut I slowly changed out his cups and I had to go to work. I was consumed with guilt leaving him in his cage all day. He seemed fine when I got home. I'm going to give myself grey hair over this guy.
 

Rain Bow

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Finally a day off after 6 days. I looked at target training. Paco is terrified of sticks. That leads me to my next question, he still trembles when I get close, we are coming up to our year mark end of March. Shouldn't he be used to me by now? He doesn't tremble when he is in his cage. When I come home now he chirps and slowly spreads his wings. One at a time and stretches out his foot. I had my Amazon for so long I forget how long it took to calm her down. She could fly, Paco has his wing feathers, sadly he does not know he can fly, he was cage bound for the 19 years of his life. Now he won't get out of his cage in the morning, he seems happy to sit on one foot. I bribed him with a peanut, (human grade) now before everyone preaches about peanuts, I know many feel they are nasty. My Amazon got 2 a day for 25 years. I don't think sunflower seeds are much better, he will sometimes eat a almond, depends on his mood. Not sure what other "treat" I can use. His taste varies. While he munched on a peanut I slowly changed out his cups and I had to go to work. I was consumed with guilt leaving him in his cage all day. He seemed fine when I got home. I'm going to give myself grey hair over this guy.
The problem w/ peanuts is he can get Aspergillious, which will cost you a zillion dollars in vet bills & make his life agony. I stopped feeding them because @Hankmacaw taught me really how terrible that death sentence is for a parrot.
 

Monica

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I looked at target training. Paco is terrified of sticks.
You don't *NEED* to use a stick as a target. You could use your hand, a toy, or really, any other object! The only concern with using your hand is that you want to avoid bites!

*IF* you wanted to try using a stick, you could use a chopstick, a bamboo skewer or anything similar. Try something short and small though. Have Paco in his cage, door closed. Stand 10' away from Paco with target in one hand, his favorite treats in the other. Slowly show Paco the target from behind your back (maybe hide half of it in your hand), then hide it, and if he shows no reaction, say "Good" (or if you can manage holding a clicker in one hand, mark behavior with click) then walk up to cage and give him a reward. Now, he can either take the reward directly from you, or you can drop it into a cup for him to take out of. Heck, even offering it via a spoon or a cup is fine, too!

Go back to your starting point and repeat this several times. After a few "no response", take a step or two closer and repeat. If at any point, Paco becomes stressed, take a step or two back and repeat until he's okay with you moving forward.

This is a way you can condition him to seeing a target without freaking out.


That leads me to my next question, he still trembles when I get close, we are coming up to our year mark end of March. Shouldn't he be used to me by now?
Not necessarily, no. I've seen a lot of people expecting birds to be "tame" and "friendly" when all they've done is feed the bird for several years. The way I think about it is imagine if you are held prisoner by a giant spider/rat/snake (something terrifying and possibly a hundred times larger than you!). Sure, they feed you, but you still feel wary and can't trust them. After all, what has this massive creature *REALLY* done in order to gain your trust? Who knows, maybe they want to eat you?

I'm not saying that you've only fed him and otherwise ignored him, but rather, you may not have simply figured out how to bridge that gap between him being wary of you to trusting you. This is where training can greatly help! It builds positive experiences between you and him as well as building a healthy relationship.
 

Rain Bow

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Buddy just really started to come along after a year. I'm @ almost 3 & he still has his moments or days where I know, no training, no going out of his comfort zone (yes, he's trained me a little too!).

I taught Buddy "beak - 5" to keep him from biting @ my hands & even tho his zone was the cage prior to me, he wasn't cage bound. I know there were things that my Dad did that most would consider abuse, he didn't know better. If I had known while he was alive I'd have ripped him a new one but I didn't know till he had past on. That being said, Buddy's cage was always open & he had the entire back of the couch & my Dad to run down/on. He wasn't cage bound. @Monica 's correlation of us being giant guard Rats & scaring him more w/ beak 5's is of no use. Maybe a bamboo skewer as the target stick (super cheap @ grocery) & thin enough it shouldn't freak him out. As for what to step up on, maybe a bent rope perch, don't add in our logic about the colors, it never applied to Buddy & he was scared as heck of the 6" dowel perch our vet gave us (now he attacks it when used). Yes, he hates it that much & I think I'm pretty good @ training. But, my hubby used it a bunch so it could've gone wrong & I wasn't in the room.
 
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Snowghost

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Thank you both, I will certainly give it try. I talked to my roommate last night, with my work schedule, I haven't seen him in a week, ugg. I told him I wanted him to talk to Paco while I'm gone. He is to afraid of Paco to let him out. He did tell me he goes into his room and talks to him and he bob's his head and he told me now Paco chirps and will stretch his wing and leg in front of him. That was so encouraging! @Monica I like the idea of the giant spider, etc. I thought some training would do us both some good, right now we are at a plataue and not moving forward. @Rain Bow I will definitely start with a skinny bamboo skewer!
 

Dartman

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If it makes you feel any better, Lurch, a Maxi Pionus took about 5 years to fully decide I was his chosen one and trustworthy. It was worth every bite I got to finally see him happy with his lot in life and at the end he'd fly after me any time I tried to leave his sight. Take a long term approach and eventually he'll realize your a friend and trust worthy but it make take a lot of little break throughs to get there.
 

Snowghost

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@Rain Bow What is beak 5? Also after I do get him to touch the stick, (one day I hope) what do I do next? Now his latest thing is he won't get OUT of his cage. This was quite a challenge as I have to go to work sometimes really early. One time I had no choice but leave his water unchanged. I was consumed with guilt, I do wash and change his water in the morning, when I get home and before he goes to bed.

Oh and trust me I am looking for another job, retail just isn't for me, never have done it before don't think I ever will!
 

Monica

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After you have him touching the stick (or not touching it - not a requirement! Just a requirement to *MOVE* to reach it), you then work on teaching him to follow the target for a reward! ;)
 

Monica

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Awe thanks Dave. Paco and I are doing wonderfully. I just love this group!
If you don't know, then you simply don't know... and you can either research it or ask.


Personally though, I find that no matter how much a person may read about something, it helps to either see a video of what exactly is being done or see the behavior in person. This really gives a better feel for exactly how something should be done. :)
 

Rain Bow

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Beak 5 is where he high fives his beak to my fingers. Not something you probably want to try w/ Paco especially if he's acting off, right now. I've only been to this part of group a couple of times. Wish I had time, & hours in my day to visit more.


This is where all the floof training stuff is. Maybe there's more on target training. Also, it's my opinion there are only 2 dumb questions... One you never ask, & one where there's never persistance in getting an answer (like you don't re-ask because we missed it the 1st time).
 

BertAllen

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Ran into this today and found it very interesting. I have been applying some of this with Tinker and it sure works. I know I taught him his bad habits so it's been up to me to retrain myself. The results have been very quick and rewarding. We are not perfect but we have lots of time to learn.

C/P
Biting is NOT an acceptable behaviour and it should NEVER be an acceptable behaviour because it means that you are pushing your bird too far. It doesn’t mean your bird is mad at you or mad at someone else or any of those constructs (labels) that humans like to place on our bird’s behaviours. All it does is get a bird rehomed and I know that many of you now have rehomed birds in your care. The best predictor of future behaviour is past consequence. This means that if your bird “learned” (and biting IS a learned behaviour) to bite in a previous home and that worked to get the bird what he/she wanted, then your new bird will use it again when placed in a situation where choice has been taken away. If you take the time to learn the skills necessary to implement behaviour change, biting will become a thing of the past.

If caregivers really understood why their birds bite and that it is within their power to prevent it from happening in the first place, they would be lining up to learn how to do that, right? Well, the answer is no they aren’t, because they are still in that mind set that it is intrinsic to the bird or that the bird is bad or they say it is because of the bird’s hormones, or was unprovoked or a myriad of other excuses that put the blame on the bird instead of on us where it belongs. Biting is human error. Simply and unequivocally and each time it happens and we “accept” it, it increases the likelihood that it will happen again and again. Each additional time you “accept” a bite just reinforces the unwanted behaviour until you begin to hate the bird and before you know it the bird is relegated to a cage in a closet or the basement or to a new home. Doesn’t it make more sense to stop it before it gets out of control? Now I don’t know about you but I’m not all that keen on having a beak with a body attached to it up to its eyeballs in my flesh. I’ve been on the receiving end enough times to know but that was before I learned about ABA (against biting always or applied behaviour analysis). I am not saying I never get bitten anymore because I am human and I make mistakes and that is the key, it is my mistake, not my birds.

One of the first things you need to do when you have a bird that bites is to stop placing yourself in a position where your bird is able to bite you. Then you need to figure out what sets the occasion for the biting to happen and what is the bird getting out of it. I don’t often get bitten anymore but when I do, the first thing I do is ask myself, “why did she do that, what was going on immediately before the bite and what happened immediately after the bite. All behaviour has function so that means just because you can’t figure out why your bird bit you, does not mean there wasn’t a reason. There is always a reason and once you figure out what it is, you can change it. All 4 of my birds had learned how to bite at one time or another. I adopted Zazu before I learned about ABA. She would bite when I tried to get her to step up. When she refused and I should have allowed her to make that choice but being the control freak I was, I had to make her step up. I ended up with hands that looked like hamburger meat and the desire to rehome her which is something I hate. When you take an animal into your home, it is your responsibility to take care of them to the best of your ability. Animals that are well behaved aren’t born that way; we have to teach them acceptable behaviours or how to succeed in our homes. Well, I taught Zazu how to bite and that really wasn’t working for me. I heard about this new on-line behaviour course and figured I better take this because if I don’t, I’m going to need a blood transfusion. I took the course in April 2004 and it changed my relationship with my birds forever. I adopted Gypsy in December 2004 and she was my first ABA bird. From the moment, I brought her home I set out to apply the techniques I had learned from the course and it was a complete and total success. Read The Bird and the Bank Account for Gypsy’s full story.

Sally started to bite me when I asked her to step up to go to bed. This one stumped me but I kept trying and at the end of the intervention you must always monitor the results because if the behaviour is maintained or increases, it is still being reinforced and seriously, we want to stop reinforcing the bite, OK? At least, I did because those beaks are really, really strong. Over a period of 6 months (yes, that’s how long it took me to figure it out), I tried everything. I changed the order I put them into their sleeping cages, I practically jumped through hoops and in the end, I learned that 1. I wasn’t spending enough time with Sally and she was telling me (I must have ignored her subtle attempts at communication) I don’t want to go to bed right now; I want to be with you. I simply increased our one-on-one time (we are talking 10-15 minutes), gave her a pine nut (her favourite primary reinforcer) once she stepped up for me and I haven’t looked back. It was smooth sailing as soon as I figured out what set the occasion for the biting to happen and so I changed our night-time ritual to give Sally what she needed (my attention) so that I got what I needed (my blood). LOL The consequence for Sally, when I asked her to step up was to be put to bed and knowing me this was most likely the only time I asked her to step up during the day. We must all get away from doing that. If the only time you ask your bird to step up is when you want them to do something they do not want to do, eventually it will backfire and they will refuse. If we insist verbally and then physically, we are going to get nailed and that happened to me more times than I can count. It worked for so long but then Sally decided one day that being put to bed was not reinforcing and of course, when that foot doesn’t come up, you need to back off. I did not do that and I inadvertently taught her to bite. You can bet I paid attention then. Now isn’t that sad that I pushed her into that position. So much for being the intelligent species.

Gypsy had learned how to bite in her previous home. She had given up all attempts at communication and immediately went to the bite. I was warned about this behaviour so I knew exactly what I needed to do. Fortunately for me, Gypsy is extremely food motivated. I learned (very quickly) several things about my Gypsy girl; she did not like me to touch anything in her cage while she was in there so I didn’t. How easy is that? If I needed to do anything with her cage, I did it when she was in bed in another room. I also learned that I needed to respect her rules. For example, when I need her to step up when I am going to work in the morning, the consequence/treat for requested behaviour is a head scratch. Gypsy dictates the acceptable amount of time. When she is ready she will put up her foot. If I stop before she is ready, she simply will not step up and if I were to push it, she would bite me and that just doesn’t work for me anymore. She makes the choice and it works for both of us. Bedtime is a little different. At 8:15 pm, I start to get the birds ready for bed. Gypsy is now on 3 medications every day so the birds all get some organic baby food in a syringe. This comes in handy when I need to medicate the birds as I do now with Gypsy. She takes it without a problem and actually gets excited (chirps, steps back and forth repeatedly on her perch) when she sees the syringe. This definitely makes my life easier. Gypsy is the last one to go into her sleep cage. Our ritual is for me to ask her if she wants to go nighty-night. Occasionally, she will put her head down but almost immediately her foot comes up and she steps up. I take her into the sleep room, ask her for a kiss, sing a little with her and then put her in the sleep cage. No problem.

Once they have their bedtime snack, the first bird that I ask to step up is Nikki. Nikki is a female goffin I adopted in 2008. Nikki was picked up in a towel in her previous home because she had learned how to bite. What I realized was that Nikki bit when she did not want you to put her down so that situation was handled very quickly with a minute of singing and dancing before asking her to step off my hand. Nikki had some very curious stereotypy behaviours when I first got her. I would offer my birds some warm organic juice at night and Nikki would touch my hand, touch the lip of the bowl, touch my hand and touch the juice so that by the time she actually dived into the juice, it was cold. So I decided to count down from 5 and if she didn’t drink some juice by the time I got to one, I simply walked away. She learned very quickly. Then I wondered if I could use that for other behaviours. So when I ask her to step up and she doesn’t, I start the count down from 5 and 80% of the time, she steps up by the time I get to one and if she doesn’t, I just start the count down again and that takes care of the other 20%. I’ve never had to repeat the count down more than twice. Now how cool is that.

Zazu flies into the sleep room as I’m on my way down the hall with Nikki. She lands on top of Gypsy’s cage and her reinforcement for the step up is me blowing on her. Just remember it is not you who decides whether something is reinforcing or not. If the behaviour is maintained or increases, it is being reinforced. I started out using food but when food (primary reinforcer) is paired with a secondary reinforcer (blowing on Zazu) enough times, it becomes the reinforcement that maintains the behaviour. And how cool is that? Are you getting sick of me saying that? LOL

It bears repeating that biting is a learned behaviour. The people who accept this behaviour from their birds is actually doing their bird a disservice. Isn’t it much better to learn how to prevent your bird from biting in the first place? I know many people who learned to “take the bites” and they no longer have those birds and that is not fair to the bird. It is very easy to get rid of an animal that bites you but when you take the time to learn how to avoid those bites and to set your bird up to succeed in your home, that is an amazing feeling and one we can all have. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist (if I can learn this, so you can you) to learn ABA but you must really want a better relationship with your birds and be able to commit to learning how to implement the tools of ABA in every day life with your bird. If you continue to blame the bird and not accept responsibility for causing the bites, you will continue to get bitten.

Accepting a bite from a bird should never be considered a badge of honour. Why not focus on learning how to prevent your bird from biting in the first place? Biting and parrots are not synonymous as people would have you believe. Just because someone tells you that is the way it is, doesn’t mean it is true. ABA teaches you how to become the best avian caregiver you can be. Then you can teach other caregivers, and they can teach other caregivers and we can help parrots keep their homes.

Now isn’t that worth working for?


Written and posted by Bev Penny
November 2, 2011
 

JLcribber

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I’ve known Bev for many years. Goes way back to the mytoos days. She’sa great bird caretaker
 

Snowghost

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@BertAllen What is the Bird and Bank Account? Is it a thread on here? What is ABA?

That's one of my issues, I don't know why Paco bites when I ask him to step up, he didn't bite his previous owner. I have given up asking him to step up and bribe him with a treat in his cup. He likes peanuts, which I know are bad, he likes pumpkin seeds, not Pepita seeds. Right now he is on a broccoli and cauliflower kick and he eats that off my finger tips.

That leads to my next question, why is he so gentle and nibbles the food off of my fingers so delicately and then chomps my arm when I offer it to step up?

He has gently touched my fingers, I thought he was going to bite, I say no bite and he doesn't, its like a gentle grasp but not a bite.

I don't know what else to use as a reinforcer, to use, his diet is limiting.

He will only eat his Nutri Berries if other seed is limited, he used to love his berries. I am still looking to replace his seed. I got Higgins Safflower, he only eats the Safflower, won't eat peppers, dried fruit or veggies. So many foods have sunflower and peanuts in them. I'd like to try sprouts, but shipping and handling is so expensive, I only make 8.25 an hour and it doesn't go far.

I'll keep reading and researching and experiment with foods for him, he loves cubed frozen carrots warm, forget the sliced ones. He is good with frozen broccoli and cauliflower warmed up.

I still want to find a dry treat I can leave in his cup while I'm work and healthy seed. The adventure continues....
 
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