Birds Sick for Months, Can't Figure Out What It Is (Have Been To Vet) *sad update* post 187

[Azellia]

Well, Booker has an overgrowth of bacteria... yippee. Back on antibiotics for him.

Banjo hasn't coughed again so far today, which is good. Pretty sure the fits will be back tomorrow morning, though. Gonna give their house a big wash (sans F10), vacuum underneath (to get all those molted feathers) and take out a few perches (I'll start with the ropes) to see if that helps.

I also looked back in my order history, and I got the birds a kebab party back just a few days before Banjo's coughing started back in late April. I did bring one of the kebabs with to my relative's, though it's outside their cage, not in it. Kebabs are something he's always been slightly sensitive to so I'm going to remove it from the room as well.

 

[Azellia]

I have new toys coming for the boys tomorrow, most are shreddables since that's what they like. Mahogany, sola, balsa, etc. Going to keep a close eye on Banjo after I hand those out. If he reacts to those, then there's one perch in their cage I might need to take out. It's wood but they like to pick at the bark-Banjo likes to sleep on it, so it could be causing issues. It's the one thing in their cage I've never really tried to remove since they like it so much. We've had it since before they got sick, though, it's not new.

 

[Azellia]

Banjo continues to make odd noises when he's eating, too. I thought it might be a happy "yummy" noise at first since I found a post with another bird making a similar noise, and I had just started offering him and his brothers chop. But he makes it no matter what he's eating, and it's a pretty new sound I've never heard from him before.

It's pretty much identical to this. Except he does it more frequently.

 

[Dartman]

Almost sounds like he's commenting on the grub to himself but you know him best.

 

[Azellia]

Well, no coughing from Banjo this morning. I made the decision to put him back on his antihistamine last night, will see if continued usage does anything for him.

I also looked back at my previous posts and put together a more detailed history of his coughing. It's been getting increasingly more frequent. One thing worth noting is that after we treated him with Cipro (plus doxy) for his first fit, his coughing went away for a month and half before returning. It came back like a week after we stopped the doxy. Next round of Cipro messed with the frequency of his coughing, made it more frequent, but less intense. It seemed like it was going away but we stopped before it really did. Since then coughing has gradually returned to bigger, once or twice a day coughs, like once or twice a week.

While we found nothing really of note on his MiDOG (which was an URT swab), or his CT, a part of me does wonder if he has a LRT bacterial infection that's just not getting treated. The Cipro was in nose drop form and unlikely to help with a LRT infection. No other antibiotics since then. The vets don't seem to think this is a fungal or bacterial thing, but they don't know what else it could be, either. So frustrating. I'm kind of at a loss here, too.

 

[Azellia]

One other thing maybe worth noting... since I was able to find a good example of his new eating noise, I looked around to see if I could find any examples of his coughing noise. And I did find a few very similar ones... except all the close examples I found were of birds vomiting. Banjo doesn't seem to make the vomiting motions (nor have I seen actual vomit from him) during these episodes, but the sound definitely sounds similar to a vomiting sound. I did find another example that matches his movements, not so much the sound, and that bird had a yeast infection. So confusing.

IF his coughing is actually very low-key vomiting, though... I think that raises the suspicion that this could be stress-related for me. I've never heard of a bird coughing from stress. I HAVE heard of birds with stress-induced vomiting.

This is the closest example of the noise he makes, by the way. Sorry, I hope it's okay it's a Reddit post!

https://www.reddit.com/r/budgies/comments/1dzs2nn
(Ignore the warning, I promise it's a safe video, just spoilered!!)

He does NOT make any exaggerated movements when he makes these noises, though. He just sits on the perch, mostly still. His head moves up and down a little bit, but in a way a human's head would slightly when they cough. No throat movement or visible vomit coming up. He does sometimes open his mouth a little and spread his wings during the process.

 

[Dartman]

That sounds more like a sneeze and Pippen does it when she buries her face in her water dish and get water up her nose. We had her in and mentioned it and they gave us some antihistamine powder to try if she really gets going.
Nerd bird did cough once and the vet tech said birds don't cough, and he started doing it right in front of her. It turned out to be some sort of infection and they gave him antibiotics and it cleared up fairly quickly. Would be nice to see if he does anything that sets it off but either way your on it and eventually the answer and solution will come.

 

[Azellia]

If it's a sneeze, that's a little less stressful than coughing/vomiting. Still, no clue what could be causing it to be so intense... unless it's just his regular sneezing getting more productive now that we're out of the mold??? He has had a few sneezes lately with good globs of clear discharge, and he does seem to have some bits of stuff in his nares pretty often. But his fits have been happening since 4/30, not just since we left the house, so I don't know.

An update for today... so, Booker is a little more awake today. But now BLANC is acting really off. Not chirping much, napping a lot. If it keeps up, guess I'm calling the vet for him, too. No coughing from Banjo in the morning, but he had a small fit later in the day. Besides the coughing, Banjo is in good spirits. He's very active and chirpy and looks good. Seems like he's starting to molt as well.

Banjo is chomping on his new toys right now, and he did make a noise when first chewing on 'em, but it's distinctly different from the newer fits he's been having. A very light "this is irritating" sneeze compared to the big, loud fits. So I don't think toy dust/particles are a trigger for those.

 

[Azellia]

Went to check on Blanc, and yeah, something's up with him. Just noticed he has deep staining on the feathers around his nares. That wasn't there a day or two ago. Hoo boy...

 

[Aviphile]

If it's a sneeze, that's a little less stressful than coughing/vomiting. Still, no clue what could be causing it to be so intense... unless it's just his regular sneezing getting more productive now that we're out of the mold??? He has had a few sneezes lately with good globs of clear discharge, and he does seem to have some bits of stuff in his nares pretty often. But his fits have been happening since 4/30, not just since we left the house, so I don't know.

An update for today... so, Booker is a little more awake today. But now BLANC is acting really off. Not chirping much, napping a lot. If it keeps up, guess I'm calling the vet for him, too. No coughing from Banjo in the morning, but he had a small fit later in the day. Besides the coughing, Banjo is in good spirits. He's very active and chirpy and looks good. Seems like he's starting to molt as well.

Banjo is chomping on his new toys right now, and he did make a noise when first chewing on 'em, but it's distinctly different from the newer fits he's been having. A very light "this is irritating" sneeze compared to the big, loud fits. So I don't think toy dust/particles are a trigger for those.

Hi Melissa, I am sorry to read about all the problems your little ones are having, its so sad. With all of these medications are you little ones being supplemented with any vitamins or minerals?

 

[Azellia]

They're getting probiotics and a vet-prescribed vitamin mix right now. I've also had them on Vetri DMG for a while. They've been getting probiotics pretty consistently since they first got sick, apart from a few days here and there if I run out and need to order more. The vitamins have been more sporadic because we don't want to risk over-supplementing. But despite the support they just keeping getting sick.

Blanc is definitely sick, too, but he's holding up. He's not doing terrible, just a bit sleepy and sneezy. Have an appt. for him coming up. Oh boy.

When I got home from work I also noticed a white kind of crust on his cere (which freaked me out because I instantly thought scaly mites) but the "crust" was on the mushier side and wiped right off. I'm not sure if it's nasal discharge or if it's residue from his new sola toys. I've never seen this when he had sola toys before, but if his cere is wetter from sneezing then maybe it's just sticking.

I guess if there's any silver lining here, I will say that everyone's sneezing has decreased a lot lately. It's a bit up now with Booker and Blanc (and Banjo, I guess, if his coughs are actually sneezes), but these sneezes are so soft and sporadic I only notice them if I'm right by them. The bigger fits in the morning at night-haven't noticed them for a little while now.

I'm tempted to ask the vet if we can put all three birds on one last round of antibiotics and see what that does. I know they don't think Banjo's issue is because of a fungal or bacterial infection, and nothing's showing up on tests. But Beanie's psuedomonas from way back only barely showed up on culture, and on nothing else. Banjo's bout with klebsiella was the same way. While Banjo was on antibiotics for his coughing issue way back when it first started... it was mainly nasal drops he was on. He was on one oral, too, but only for a very short period. So if that initial infection spread anywhere beyond his URT, I think there's a chance it could still be lingering. I don't know.

 

[Aviphile]

Thank you

Could I ask what kind of probiotics you are giving? What is in the Vet prescribed vitamin mix? What is it called, liquid or powdered, what is in it and how are you giving it to them? Are they given any kind of minerals or mineral supplements?

May I ask what you are feeding them? What type of water you use? Tap, filtered, bottled, distilled, reverse osmosis and so on.

The little one of yours that is having the cough, what was the last medication that he was on? Antibiotic or antifungal?

I hope that it is okay me asking this

 

[Azellia]

The probiotics are HealthyGut Avian probiotics. I'm not sure what exactly is in the vitamin mix-the label just says Lafeber vitamin mix. It's in a blue tube from the vet, not a lot of info on it. It's a white powder, sprinkled on food. Similar to/same thing as this, maybe: Powdered Bird Vitamins – Lafeber Company

They do have a mineral block available to them. For food, they eat mainly seeds-I've been trying to convert them to pellets forever with no luck. Volkmann right now. They do have access to Zupreem pellets but I don't think they touch them much. Was recently able to get them on chop. Current mix is cooked quinoa, flax seed, chia seed, romaine lettuce, collard greens, broccoli, green chilli (with seeds), celery, beetroot, carrot, blueberry... I may be missing a thing or two, but that's the gist of it. I give them whole veggies (usually lettuce or broccoli) alongside that sometimes, though I only keep it out for short periods of time. They've gotten daily veggies for as long as I've had them, mostly whole.

I try to use spring water for them when I can, but sometimes I do use tap.

The last med Banjo was on (in terms of antibiotic/antifungal) was antifungal. Fluconazole, since gram stain detected yeast. Didn't do much for his cough. Antibiotics do seem to affect his cough (first round of Cipro put it in remission for over a month, second round messed with it's timing/intensity), but we just can't seem to squash it fully.

 

[Azellia]

So, Blanc did end up having a bacterial infection like Booker, and also got put on the antibiotic. I asked if we could maybe try it for Banjo as well, just because I was so suspicious we were missing something with his "coughing".

Well, all finished their course. Booker's energy is up. Not perfect but wayyyyy batter. Blanc's sneezing is no longer staining the feathers above his cere. Banjo hasn't had any symptoms-no coughing, no weird noises when eating, breathing looks good, etc.-for several days now. Does that mean his "coughing" is gone? I don't know, it seems to fluctuate. I don't think I'll be convinced it's gone until it's been gone for a few months. But the past few days have been good for him.

All three are unfortunately still sneezing, though, despite having been out of the mold zone for well over a month now. I honestly don't think this will ever go away. I'm at the point where I think I just want to leave them off meds (unless they show any form of decline) and see if that helps. Their immune systems must be completely jacked at this point. I don't think that's doing them any favors.

 

[Dartman]

Well all birds sneeze now and then, or like Pippen when they inhale water drinking too fast. My previous Maxi Lurch one day I looked at his nose and he like had snot running out of his Nares but he was acting fine and doing normal Lurch things. Talked to a lot of folks here and some said their birds seem to get allergies and sometimes do that but are otherwise fine. He never did it again and was here for about 6 years getting happier and stronger.
Pippen got the antihistamine powder in case she ever gets bad enough to need it but usually she sneezes till she gets it cleared out then she's good for a long time.
Nerd like I said was coughing and antibiotics cleared up what they found and he was good for a long time afterwards. It sounds like you finally have a handle on what's happening and will be able to deal with it better if it comes around again.

 

[Azellia]

The sneezing is fortunately (mostly) contained to first thing in the morning and right before bed now. Back when they first got sick it was multiple sneezes every minute. It's still way more excessive than I would consider normal-like a dozen sneezes per bird per day-but maybe this is just their new normal now.

I feel like if this was asper or some other terrible infection, they would have other symptoms or just straight up be dead by now. It's been over a year. And it's just been sneezing, never-ending sneezing, but not much else. As long as Banjo's "coughing" doesn't come back and get worse I'm not really worried about them suddenly dropping. Though the sneezing is still pretty stressful.

I think what sucks the most about this is that I just don't have any answer as to what's causing it. So I can't really help them the way I'd like to. I'm also not sure if I can ever bring another bird into the flock with them like this and me not knowing why. With Beanie gone and Booker seeming pretty lonely, it's something I was considering but I just don't feel safe doing it.

 

[Azellia]

Sigh, of course. Banjo is back to coughing and holding his wings out. He took a bath today and his symptoms reappeared after.

 

[Azellia]

I was anticipating some morning coughing from Banjo after yesterday, but so far, nothing. He looks totally fine today. Interesting.

I do wonder if this particular symptom of his could be stress-related sometimes.

He chose to bathe himself, so wasn't forced or anything. But obviously he was very wet and unwieldy and a little chilly afterward. He's also molting right now which I'm sure is extra stress on him.

His last fit happened to happen after I made a bit of noise in the night after discovering a massive spider in the bathroom sink (eek). Other past fits happened more at random, but of course this whole last year has been stressful to the max.

I've just never heard of a bird making such a weird noise when stressed!

 

[Azellia]

It's such a strange behavior, too, because it's very intermittent. He can go days or weeks acting perfectly normal, zero symptoms whatsoever, and then the behaviors flare up again.

 

[Dartman]

Well Pippen started sneezing this morning but we've learned eventually she clears out whatever she got into and is fine for a while. Got home and she's fine again and just being Pippen. Pretty sure she's still getting water down the wrong pipe and then sneezes and coughs till she clears it. She was scratching at her nose but couldn't see anything stuck in either side and didn't have to give her the antihistamine scraping yet. The vet couldn't see or hear anything so gave us the pill, I thought it was powder, just in case. Scrape a tiny bit in her food I think was the instructions.