Birds don’t get out much in cold winters. Advice?

[Beebleburb]

We have a propane fireplace for heat and I know they’d burn themselves on it if I let them out to the main hub of the house. I thought about moving their cage to the main hub of the house so they have more visual stimulation but I worry a lot about cooking fumes. I have a fume hood over the oven but having a gas stove is new to me and it’s spooky. Right now they get about an hour outside the cage with direct interaction a day in the AM.
i make them little forage newspaper toys to keep them busy, they don’t have any behavior issues that I’ve noticed but the conure is more reluctant to go in his cage when I have to put him back in.
advice? Is moving them to the main living area an okay choice even tho the fireplace and kitchen are connected to it?
i also thought about setting up smaller cages in the main room but the small cages I have they can chip the enamel coating off the bars and I don’t like that.
hope to hear some thoughts. Thanks!

 

[Rebel]

I suggest you get a low level carbon monoxide detector to put in the main part of the house. Maybe you could put the birds in the back room while you cook if youre worried.
Im assuming the fireplace is vented to the outside.

 

[Linwood]

I moved to a new house about 2 years ago and my first experience with gas. I have an air quality monitor (unrelated to the bird, I got it for 3D printing) and have been learning a lot about cooking with gas (and cooking in general).

Carbon MONoxide detectors are required for human life safety, but partly because so many people have poor quality gas appliances and partly because CO is a result of inadequate combustion, it is highly unlikely Carbon MONoxide is an issue if your stuff is in good shape. But you need a detector just in case. Just don't count on it to tell you the air is bad for anything else.

Unvented gas logs and (which I consider wildly risky) unvented stoves also put out Carbon Dioxide, Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrox Oxide, particulates (basically tiny invisible smoke) and some VOC's. In a serious cold snap I decided to try boiling a pot of water on the stove without the vent on. Distilled water. Three times.



The sensor is in the next room. EPA sets a limit of 100ppb for 1 hour. This was 4-5 times that. Here's some cooking WITH the vent running (on low):



Notice the change in scale, way down around 8ppb. Now this is a cheap sensor so I do not know how accurate, but I trust it is showing a couple orders of magnitude difference from un-vented and vented.

Particulates, CO2, NO2 and other bad stuff have similar curves.

I also have an UN-vented gas logs (and apparently no good solution to get them vented due to the idiot who remodeled the house before I bought it). So I leave them off except I might use if the heat is off (better to get some bad air than freeze).

I don't know how much more sensitive birds are than people (I do know if you ask here the answer will be that the slightest bad air will kill them, but I think people over-worry).

But I can tell you with actual measurements - gas stoves produce bad air, and need a good exhaust running the whole time. You can't see or smell what they put out, but proper venting is needed for your safety as well as others.

And I remain astounded in the US in some states they are able to sell them in new construction WITHOUT vents to the outside (north carolina is one, probably 60% of the houses I looked at while shopping to move here had them).

I don't feel any urgency in replacing my gas stove (for construction reasons it would be hard), but the exhaust vent now is on all the time, every time I use it.

Incidentally, in that time frame the Carbon Monoxide measurement hardly moved at all... it's poison and can kill you, but it generally is produced only with poor combustion (look at your burner, if the flame is almost always completely blue and no visible smoke, it's probably good combustion). But the other stuff is produced all the time, every time.

 

[Beebleburb]

@Linwood Thank you so much for sharing this data- stuff like this is so valuable to me and the fact that you took the time to put it all out means a lot! I hadn't been using the stove fan unless any steam was produced so I will be sure to use it every time now. However im just not totally clear on wich gas is being represented in the chart-it is carbon monoxide right? or is it an overall chart of parts per billion of 'toxins' in some way?

My stove is market as 'ventless' for the actual machine but it is fitted in a actual wood stove chamber with a proper chimney and vent still and I am sure to open the flue when it is in use just to make sure air circulates okay even though the repair guy told me its safe to run it either way

I have a carbon monoxide detector! and I check my flames a lot just cus i dont want to be wasting gas, i never have any smoke or 'fluttering' that is a sign of more gas being emitted than consumed. I think about getting a fancier one though, just cus mine is very basic and I wish I had data like this. In the seasons where it is not frigid im very big on opening the windows to 'clean' the air at night, and I don't like when its too cold to do it.

I think I'll just have to keep the birds going lower contact in this big cold snap this winter. especially seeing the numbers I am reassured that Im making the better decision for their health, even if they get a little bored. I know winters in the future likley wont be as bad as this one, the east coast has gotten pretty slammed this year.

 

[Linwood]

The graph was NOX (Nitrogen Oxide, it has a separate for NO2 or Nitrogen Dioxide).

More than you wanted to know perhaps....

CO (Carbon Monoxide) did not increase. CO is produced by poor combustion, which basically means badly oriented or tuned gas flow to the burners (including a burner in gas logs). A tiny bit is always produced, but poor combustion causes CO to be produced rather than (relatively harmless) CO2. CO is the seriously bad, urgent poison, but it is rarely produced on well maintained appliances. The other bad stuff is what builds up to health effects over time, and is always produced.

Natural Gas is Methane (CH4) which ideally burns to release CO2 and H2O, i.e. very safe results. Even CO2 is safe so long as there is some ventilation, and in winter most people appreciate the H2O as increased humidity.

However, the "natural" gas we receive is polluted with sulfur and other chemicals, so when it burns you get all sorts of bad stuff in small quantities. Blame the fossil fuel industry, who long ago decided by marketing it as "natural" gas people would think it was healthy. SO2 (Sulfur dioxide) is one of the more important ones. But these bad things are not like Carbon Monoxide - they hurt you slowly over months and years, whereas Carbon Monoxide can kill you in minutes.

In addition burning anything in air can produce Nitrogen Oxide and Nitrogen Dioxide just from heat and air, and both have health effects over time and in high quantities, but also take months or years for serious damage to your body.

Because everything except Carbon Monoxide is very dependent on volume to be bad, using an exhaust vent tends to get rid of enough volume of the bad stuff that it becomes safe. If your stove starts producing Carbon Monoxide the vent is not adequate and you do need a Carbon Monoxide detector (for any kind of combustion in the house). Carbon Monoxide gets all the publicity as it can kill quickly, but it's not the real issue with most gas stoves (and logs) because most are in good shape and work properly. But ALL of them produce the other pollutants, and an industry that has convinced people they do not need exhaust fans. It is VERY much like the 40's and 50's when cigarettes were sold as healthy and good for you, helping to relax pregnant women for example. There's massive amounts of money being spent to keep gas stoves from more regulation. And like smoking, it hurts you slowly over time and gets blamed on something else.

While I'm not a huge fan of gas stoves, what they really need is just an outside exhaust fan, and for people to use them. What my graphs showed was how quickly one of the pollutants (NO) can build without it, and how it's 100 times less with the fan going.

The short version is: Gas stoves, ovens, and fireplaces need an outside vent to be safe around people, despite not being required by code.

And yes, you also need a Carbon Monoxide detector regardless of vent usage, and if it goes off immediately turn off the stove and go outside leaving the door open to let air in. But the vast majority of people will never hear that alarm go off.

Under the idea that birds are even more sensitive to bad air... you should be even more encouraged to turn on your vent.

 

[Linwood]

Incidentally I also think people should have a methane (natural gas) detector. Most do not. If you ever leave a burner on and the flame goes out, most stoves will continue to output gas. Or if you start a burner and it doesn't catch (but you don't notice, maybe because a pot is on it), it will just output gas. Most stoves (I have a brand new fancy "smart one") do not notice this and just keep pumping out gas.

Natural Gas is lighter than air, so when released will rise slowly. A natural gas detector needs to near the stove and not below it to work. They are typically not required by any building code.

Carbon Monoxide is approximately the as air, and tends to disperse evenly. Carbon Monoxide detectors should usually be at people level, neither high nor low, and a bit away from the stove (you don't want brief, small amounts to set it off.

Smoke Detectors work with smoke and hot fumes that are much lighter than air, and need to be high and away from the corners (where there's dead air). Often Smoke and Carbon Monoxide detectors are combined, and that's actually not a great idea, as they are then slower to alarm.