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Bird not associating click with reward

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Cremaster

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I have worked for over three weeks to introduce my bird to the clicker. The only food she lunges for is almond which I use small pieces of. I click and reward, click and reward, both in sessions and not in sessions, hungry or not hungry. The bird has yet to figure out click = reward on the way. She does not react in any way. I am rewarding less than a second after I click.

Any ideas or comments? I would think that if amoeba are capable of stimulus response conditioning that my bird would pick it up rather quickly.
 

Anne & Gang

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could be she just doesnt want to..you would be surprised at how incredibly smart they are.
 

BraveheartDogs

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I have worked for over three weeks to introduce my bird to the clicker. The only food she lunges for is almond which I use small pieces of. I click and reward, click and reward, both in sessions and not in sessions, hungry or not hungry. The bird has yet to figure out click = reward on the way. She does not react in any way. I am rewarding less than a second after I click.

Any ideas or comments? I would think that if amoeba are capable of stimulus response conditioning that my bird would pick it up rather quickly.
Okay, let's figure this out. What do you mean "the bird has yet to rigure out click = reward"? Why do you say this? Is it because when you click she doesn't seem to look for the food? There are pretty much only a couple of things that could be going on. 1) the food isn't high enough value so the bird isn't interested, in this case, keep auditioning foods, 2) the bird is uncomfortable or afraid, in this case, the bird won't be able to take food if it is fearful, 3) the timing is off and the bird can't make the connection.

Tell me exactly what you are using as your reinforcer and where the bird is when you train, is it in the cage, out of the cage? How do you deliver the reinforcer? Is it out of your hand? From a bowl? Etc.
 

evsrin

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Okay, let's figure this out. What do you mean "the bird has yet to rigure out click = reward"? Why do you say this? Is it because when you click she doesn't seem to look for the food? There are pretty much only a couple of things that could be going on. 1) the food isn't high enough value so the bird isn't interested, in this case, keep auditioning foods, 2) the bird is uncomfortable or afraid, in this case, the bird won't be able to take food if it is fearful, 3) the timing is off and the bird can't make the connection.

Tell me exactly what you are using as your reinforcer and where the bird is when you train, is it in the cage, out of the cage? How do you deliver the reinforcer? Is it out of your hand? From a bowl? Etc.
Thank you for writing this... I've been working with Tiki and I think the main problem is we don't have a quiet place without distractions that is away from his cage. I think I have to solve this problem before we will make any progress. I'm going to have to buy him a t-perch or simple play stand for training purposes.
 

rocabird

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I'll be honest and say that I very rarely "charge the clicker". Even without doing it, they seem to pick up very that click = treat and then that "when I do this, she clicks and I get a treat". I did do it with Eco for the sake of the training sessions here, and he did respond by turning toward the treat after the click, but even if he didn't show any sign, as long as he would TAKE the treat and eat it after I clicked, I would have moved onto working on targeting after a few sessions of charging. Here's a link from Karen Pryor's Clicker Training facebook page where some asked about how long to chagre the clicker- How do you know when a clicker is "charged"? | Facebook

As it was even after charging we did have some problems with him not wanting the treats while we worked on targeting, but we got through it by switching treats (which he only liked for a day or two) and head scritches . On another thread someone suggested pine nuts and finally those have been the one treat he will take consistently.

We've been working on some different things. So far I have him picking up a ball and putting it in a cup in my hand, picking up a ring and putting it over a post I hold in my hand and targeting a cup that we will eventually use for stacking. We've done this all on his "porch" on his cage and he really looks forward to our sessions. I'm trying to think of some things to work on in the future.
 

evsrin

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I'll be honest and say that I very rarely "charge the clicker". Even without doing it, they seem to pick up very that click = treat and then that "when I do this, she clicks and I get a treat". I did do it with Eco for the sake of the training sessions here, and he did respond by turning toward the treat after the click, but even if he didn't show any sign, as long as he would TAKE the treat and eat it after I clicked, I would have moved onto working on targeting after a few sessions of charging. Here's a link from Karen Pryor's Clicker Training facebook page where some asked about how long to chagre the clicker- How do you know when a clicker is "charged"? | Facebook

As it was even after charging we did have some problems with him not wanting the treats while we worked on targeting, but we got through it by switching treats (which he only liked for a day or two) and head scritches . On another thread someone suggested pine nuts and finally those have been the one treat he will take consistently.

We've been working on some different things. So far I have him picking up a ball and putting it in a cup in my hand, picking up a ring and putting it over a post I hold in my hand and targeting a cup that we will eventually use for stacking. We've done this all on his "porch" on his cage and he really looks forward to our sessions. I'm trying to think of some things to work on in the future.
I can understand this perspective, and that it may work like this in many situations... I wish mine were that easy, but I really sense my bird's un-ease because we don't have a quiet spot. If I try to do it on his cage he just runs into his cage or trys to get on his boing hanging from the ceiling. If he is within eyesight of the cage he tries to fly back to it.

I just haven't found a place he feels really secure, like able to concentrate on me, he's always distracted by what my dogs are doing or if they are outside and they bark he gets anxious. He's not technically afraid of them (he will happily play out of his cage with them around), I think it's more that there's too much going on and he can't concentrate on me. I really need a playstand or table top training perch, and to just get him comfortable/able to focus in a room alone with me without the other animals. I feel it's going nowhere untill I do that. :(
 

rocabird

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The nice thing about clicker training is you can try something and if it doesn't work, you can try something else without worrying about the fallout.

It does sound like he is uncomfortable if he is trying to get away. Did he do this while you were charging the clicker? I was thinking it could be the click sound making him uncomfortable but it doesn't sound like he was trying to get away from your post in the Clicktraining classroom thread.

It would be worth trying a different, quiet area or even working through the bars of his cage. I have to work through the bars with my Hahns because the clicker amps him up and he bites when I offer the treat. It feels a little weird at first, but I know once we get more into training he'll stop that behavior (the power of the clicker kicks in).
 

BraveheartDogs

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The nice thing about clicker training is you can try something and if it doesn't work, you can try something else without worrying about the fallout.

It does sound like he is uncomfortable if he is trying to get away. Did he do this while you were charging the clicker? I was thinking it could be the click sound making him uncomfortable but it doesn't sound like he was trying to get away from your post in the Clicktraining classroom thread.

It would be worth trying a different, quiet area or even working through the bars of his cage. I have to work through the bars with my Hahns because the clicker amps him up and he bites when I offer the treat. It feels a little weird at first, but I know once we get more into training he'll stop that behavior (the power of the clicker kicks in).
I agree we have to figure out a way for him to feel more comfortable. YOu may just need to do a lot of dropping treats into his dish as you walk by. I would bring the dogs in but put them in another room. In order for learning to happen all the animals basic needs have to be met and safety is definitely a basic need so if they don't feel comfortable you won't get the best training accomplished.
 

evsrin

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The nice thing about clicker training is you can try something and if it doesn't work, you can try something else without worrying about the fallout.

It does sound like he is uncomfortable if he is trying to get away. Did he do this while you were charging the clicker? I was thinking it could be the click sound making him uncomfortable but it doesn't sound like he was trying to get away from your post in the Clicktraining classroom thread.

It would be worth trying a different, quiet area or even working through the bars of his cage. I have to work through the bars with my Hahns because the clicker amps him up and he bites when I offer the treat. It feels a little weird at first, but I know once we get more into training he'll stop that behavior (the power of the clicker kicks in).
I'm pretty sure it's not about the clicker, because we had a great day when he was sitting in my window in the computer room. I was charging the clicker at that point and he took the treats no problem. He does not seem to be afraid of the actual clicker or the noise. He will step right up to the hand I'm holding it in.

I don't think working through the cage works because if we are doing something he doesn't want to, he just heads for his happy hut! :hehe:

I think it will go much better when I can settle on one place to work with him, instead of trying to move all over the house searching. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to buy a t-perch on some sort of platform/base. Hopefully we can just make something because I haven't seen anything in stores that I like. I'm looking for something simple, not an extravagant play gym to give him more reasons to be distracted. Hopefully this will solve the problem.


I agree we have to figure out a way for him to feel more comfortable. YOu may just need to do a lot of dropping treats into his dish as you walk by. I would bring the dogs in but put them in another room. In order for learning to happen all the animals basic needs have to be met and safety is definitely a basic need so if they don't feel comfortable you won't get the best training accomplished.
He's totally fine with me being around, he comes willingly out of the cage. :) He's so little so it's really easy to over-do it on the treats. I plan on making room in one of our bedrooms to work with him, without other pets in here. It's hard right at the moment because we are painting them and getting ready for new carpet to be installed. After that I will be able to set up a space for him no problem, but obviously he can't be anywhere near this part of the house while we are renovating it. :) It's a bit of a roadblock, but I'm not going to be discouraged because I know we can do it. I just picked bad timing in the middle of everything we have going on right now.

The good thing is, it will give me the time to find/build a suitable training perch!!!
 

BraveheartDogs

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I don't think working through the cage works because if we are doing something he doesn't want to, he just heads for his happy hut! :hehe:


He's totally fine with me being around, he comes willingly out of the cage. :) He's so little so it's really easy to over-do it on the treats. !!
Okay, if he heads for his happy hut that means he doesn't want to train and that's okay, he doesn't have to. We want him so excited about the training that he won't leave you alone when you invite him to train.

Taht is a good observation on the treats. My advice is shorter training sessions. He probably just fills up quickly. What are you using for treats? And, can you remind me of the type of bird?
 

evsrin

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Okay, if he heads for his happy hut that means he doesn't want to train and that's okay, he doesn't have to. We want him so excited about the training that he won't leave you alone when you invite him to train.

Taht is a good observation on the treats. My advice is shorter training sessions. He probably just fills up quickly. What are you using for treats? And, can you remind me of the type of bird?
I've broken up honey nut cheerios into about 5-6 pieces for each whole one. I've only done 10 reps at a time. I'm still searching for something he goes crazy over, he always willingly takes a honey nut cheerio... it just doesn't seem that he gets excited about anything. Spoiled bird! :lol: He's a Green Cheek Conure.

I've also tried freeze dried apples, bananas, strawberries, and some gerber baby snack puffs in sweet potato, apple cinnamon, and banana. He will eat the puffs, but he will take a cheerio over them any day. I don't know what else to try. I have some goldenfeast and he eats the cashews so maybe I'll take those out and chop them up. Whatever it is has to be REALLY tiny, that just makes it hard for me. It takes him forever to eat a whole cheerio or the puffs which are very close in size.
 

rocabird

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I had to move Eco down to 5 reps a session because he lost interest, although now I can do 5 of one behavior and move onto another behavior. I used safflower seeds at first then moved onto hitting almonds with a hammer to break them up to make sure I had small enough treats(he's a Senegal). He lost interest in both of them shortly after I started using each of them, but the pine nuts have been working good for about the last 3 weeks. I give them whole, but should really cut them in half. Next time I run to the natural food store I am going to look for Chia or Hemp seeds. I've heard of people using them and their birds loving them, which means my bird probably won't . :D
 

BraveheartDogs

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I've broken up honey nut cheerios into about 5-6 pieces for each whole one. I've only done 10 reps at a time. I'm still searching for something he goes crazy over, he always willingly takes a honey nut cheerio... it just doesn't seem that he gets excited about anything. Spoiled bird! :lol: He's a Green Cheek Conure.

I've also tried freeze dried apples, bananas, strawberries, and some gerber baby snack puffs in sweet potato, apple cinnamon, and banana. He will eat the puffs, but he will take a cheerio over them any day. I don't know what else to try. I have some goldenfeast and he eats the cashews so maybe I'll take those out and chop them up. Whatever it is has to be REALLY tiny, that just makes it hard for me. It takes him forever to eat a whole cheerio or the puffs which are very close in size.
Have you tried safflower seeds? My GCC goes CRAZY for them and will work for them for a long time, same with my Meyers. You might try that.
 

evsrin

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Have you tried safflower seeds? My GCC goes CRAZY for them and will work for them for a long time, same with my Meyers. You might try that.
Will do. I dont keep much of them around but I have some left. I will see how that goes. :) Thanks!
 

evsrin

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I use them exclusively for training. They love them.
Bingo! Safflower it is. Thank you very much. So far today I've done 10 reps twice. My target stick is a thin red plastic straw. He's slightyl afraid of it, but we got to the point of me holding it up in one hand with the clicker and showing him a treat with the other, then when he'd come to get the treat I'd click and give it to him. Is there anything wrong with this method to get him used to seeing the "target stick" ? I thought that waiting for him to come get the treat would be good. It didn't take long, and at that point we were in the 2nd set of reps before I showed him the straw.
 

evsrin

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Glad you found the magical treat. Be aware that it might not last forever. After a few months Willow seemed to get bored with our training treat and we have to find another.

Have fun!

~ Monica
OH,yes...he's a tough one, I've backed off with the training because he was getting moody. Going to give it some time and try again!
 

BraveheartDogs

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Bingo! Safflower it is. Thank you very much. So far today I've done 10 reps twice. My target stick is a thin red plastic straw. He's slightyl afraid of it, but we got to the point of me holding it up in one hand with the clicker and showing him a treat with the other, then when he'd come to get the treat I'd click and give it to him. Is there anything wrong with this method to get him used to seeing the "target stick" ? I thought that waiting for him to come get the treat would be good. It didn't take long, and at that point we were in the 2nd set of reps before I showed him the straw.
I would just present the stick at a distance he can tolerate and then give a treat and repeat that over and over. You want to make sure that the stick predicts the treat. Otherwise, if he is afraid of the stick you can actually poison the treat by having it predict the stick if that makes sense.
 
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