Bioactive bird setups - why aren't they more common?

[kangadrew]

Hi everyone,

Joined here to ask a question that's been on my mind recently. Why aren't bioactive bird setups a thing that's done more often (if at all)?

Let me elaborate a bit. I'm a reptile guy by nature, but I love the larger birds as well. In reptile keeping, the "traditional" way to do things has always been to set up a cage large enough for the animal, clean the cage whenever needed, feed, water, and if you choose to, socialize your animals. That's pretty much the basics of reptiles, amphibians, and invertebrates. Now, going into this - I absolutely realize that birds and mammals tend to be far more complex than cold-blooded animals, just by nature. But, hear me out.

Somewhere along the line, people realized that a large step of this process can be taken out - the cleaning. By keeping animals in a very naturalistic setup, with a clean up crew consisting of small invertebrates (usually springtails and isopods), a completely maintenance-free enclosure can be built - these are known as bioactive setups. Using more natural substrates, a living clean up crew, and optionally natural furnishings, it's possible to build an ecosystem that is entirely self-sustaining, and works on even the largest animals in our hobby. A good example would be large monitors - they eat a lot, produce a ton of waste, and yet we can still create a captive environment for them that is nearly maintenance free, allowing us to spend more time interacting with and observing the animals, and less time focusing on maintenance.
This has even been used in some cases with small mammals, like hedgehogs. Almost any poison dart frog display you can find is set up to be bioactive, for ease of maintenance. And the list goes on and on and on.

Now, here's where things change a bit - this entire concept of bioactivity has not caught on with birds yet (to my knowledge). Substrates seem to be replaced, even in the largest of outdoor setups, with bare concrete, sand, or gravel floors that are easier swept or hosed clean. But, I don't see any reason that in a large outdoor (or even indoor) aviary, a natural substrate, with healthy populations of invertebrates to handle waste, couldn't be utilized to make cleaning non-existent.

What is the reasoning behind this not being a thing in the bird hobby? Is it that the majority of keepers just don't know this exists? Has it been tried, and failed for some reason? Would love to hear some thoughts and discuss a bit further.
Take care,
Drew

 

[Mizzely]

I have a leopard gecko I'm converting to a bioactive set up

Some thoughts.
The bugs are something that already come with the territory with a leopard gecko, so it's not a big leap. A lot of people don't like bugs, though!

Additionally, they are enclosed in a tank that they cannot escape from. In fact, most pet stores you walk into you can find a tank and most cleaner bugs can't escape from them. So even for an average apartment you can have a bioactive reptile tank, which makes knowledge of them more common.

Birds aren't as easy to get to that point as a standard bird cage isn't going to keep invertebrates inside of it. So now only the people with an appropriate set up can do it. What would that look like even? I don't know. If it's outside do you populate the area with cleaner bugs, and hope they stay nearby?

Birds are messy with a lot of stuff and create far more waste than a reptile does usually. There is food waste, toy waste, and feces. My gecko poops once or twice a week. My parrot poops every 15 minutes. So it might just be a matter of scaling amount of cleaner crew to actually keep on top of the generated mess. Plus, not everything is going to be as quickly broken down, or broken down at all. Example: plastic scraps left from a toy.

A lot of people like to monitor bird poop closely as it is often the first sign that they are sick. This is harder on a dirt surface, particularly if it'll get consumed before the owner can check it.

Interesting idea for sure, and I'm not sure the actual reason, but those are things I immediately think of

 

[Sarahmoluccan]

I find bioactive enclosures fascinating. I think @Mizzely makes some great points why you don't see them in bird community. I've actually never heard of anything bioactive for birds at all. I have heard of bioactive enclosures for hedgehogs thou...

 

[kangadrew]

I have a leopard gecko I'm converting to a bioactive set up

Some thoughts.
The bugs are something that already come with the territory with a leopard gecko, so it's not a big leap. A lot of people don't like bugs, though!

Additionally, they are enclosed in a tank that they cannot escape from. In fact, most pet stores you walk into you can find a tank and most cleaner bugs can't escape from them. So even for an average apartment you can have a bioactive reptile tank, which makes knowledge of them more common.

Birds aren't as easy to get to that point as a standard bird cage isn't going to keep invertebrates inside of it. So now only the people with an appropriate set up can do it. What would that look like even? I don't know. If it's outside do you populate the area with cleaner bugs, and hope they stay nearby?

Birds are messy with a lot of stuff and create far more waste than a reptile does usually. There is food waste, toy waste, and feces. My gecko poops once or twice a week. My parrot poops every 15 minutes. So it might just be a matter of scaling amount of cleaner crew to actually keep on top of the generated mess. Plus, not everything is going to be as quickly broken down, or broken down at all. Example: plastic scraps left from a toy.

A lot of people like to monitor bird poop closely as it is often the first sign that they are sick. This is harder on a dirt surface, particularly if it'll get consumed before the owner can check it.

Interesting idea for sure, and I'm not sure the actual reason, but those are things I immediately think of

All good reasons!

The escape part is true - but it's been done well in outdoor enclosures as well. Sure, inverts would escape - but the idea is that you provide an optimal environment, that there's not much of a reason for them to escape. And/or, you have large enough colonies that they reproduce so fast, that escapes don't even matter - they're replaced quicker than they can leave.

The amount of waste does seem to be an issue, although water monitors are a good example to show that it might work. I know of several adult water monitors (5-6 foot lizards) kept in 8 by 6 foot enclosures, set up bioactive. These are animals fed three times a week, producing a massive amount of waste. I have no clue how that would compare to a parrot, because it's sort of apples and oranges - a water monitor is going to have less frequent, but larger bowel movements, while a parrot is going to have smaller, but much more frequent movements. If anything, I would think that makes them a better candidate for bioactive, since the clean up crew has smaller pieces to break up, even if they're more frequent.

The food waste wouldn't be an issue, that's what keeps the clean up crew alive when paired with food waste. The plastic scraps would certainly be an issue - but couldn't this be avoided with more natural forms of enrichment, like wooden toys? Those pieces, when broken down, would just fall to the substrate, be decomposed, and become part of the substrate itself. Since reptiles don't really use toys, this is usually done by placing branches, logs, and/or leaf litter in the substrate.

Monitoring the fecal matter would be the big one, and I'm not experienced enough with birds to give a good comment there. Is fecal matter the best way to determine a bird's health, or can visual and behavioral cues alone be used? That could definitely be a major issue with this concept.

I have a feeling that it could be done successfully, but only in certain cases. It would definitely be tough to do indoors, and certainly not in a typical cage, only an aviary with some serious size to it. I'd love to try it someday, in a well-planted outdoor aviary.

On a side note, with the outdoor aviaries - I recently saw a fantastic outdoor aviary concept. It comes from Joe Ball in Queensland, who specializes in blue tongue skinks and other Australian reptiles, but also keeps macaws. He's got a metal shed, that he put large (probably 8x8 or 10x10) indoor kennel-style cages inside of. Then on the wall of the shed, he put a garage door, and an equally sized cage on the outside end of that door. When the weather's nice, he can open up the door, and give the birds twice the space, and if the weather goes south, he can easily move the birds back indoors. Thought that was a rather genius idea

 

[kangadrew]

I find bioactive enclosures fascinating. I think @Mizzely makes some great points why you don't see them in bird community. I've actually never heard of anything bioactive for birds at all. I have heard of bioactive enclosures for hedgehogs thou...

I've never heard of it either. It's insanely popular with amphibians and invertebrates like tarantulas. Still pretty underground with the reptile hobby, but becoming more and more popular. It's been done with small mammals, but rarely. But birds - that one I've yet to see.

It's definitely a tall order, and would take a serious amount of dedication and space. But the animal hobby as a whole is evolving, more and more species are being kept that were once thought impossible, and some crazy new setups are being designed. If you're into enclosure design, check out Primitive Predators on Youtube. They're building a massive facility designed around crocodiles and tortoises, and are pretty much THE best enclosure designs on the planet, all done privately. I'd be shocked if we don't see more people like them keeping different species, birds being among the first of them.

 

[Mizzely]

Birds are prey and flock animals and tend to hide illness to avoid being dinner or abandoned by the flock for safety reasons. Thus, when a bird LOOKS sick it is often really quite ill.

As for the toys, my bird can destroy several feet of wood in a few days, so it piles up quickly. Some birds don't like wood and prefer less natural toys, so it's really dependent on the bird

 

[Ulis_Beast]

Like Mizzely said it is actually really important to be able to asses the droppings on a daily basis.

One other big concern would be cross-contamination. I see no reasonable way to keep the critters in the enclosure, preventing them from bringing harmful bacteria/viruses/funghi in.

Speaking of which... Funghi and Aspergillosis, which can be found in the soil, when damp... But most bugs need atleast a bit of damp, right?

Parrots mostly take to high ground (in the treetops, or high perches in an aviary), but will go to floor level to forage.. Where the cross-contamination comes into play. Captive birds haven't had constant exposure in reasonable amounts to develop the appropriate immunities.

I would really consider it a health risk for my birds.

(I am not an expert, merely my thoughts)

Hopefully someone smarter than me can figure out a way so I never ever have to clean the cage, vacuum 3 times a day ever again

 

[tka]

I think you're trying to compare vastly different animals, with vastly different physiologies. I think bioactive environments for invertebrates, amphibians and reptiles are fascinating and often gorgeously designed, but I cannot see this kind of set-up working for parrots.

Parrots (with the exception of kakapo) evolved to live in the trees, only coming to the ground to forage. They would fly miles each day. A 10x10 permanant enclosure is considered small by a parrot's standards. Most of our parrots have a good three hours out of their cage a day and even then it can be a fight to get them flying enough to keep their hearts, weights and respiratory systems healthy. Birds' respiratory systems are ridiculously, ridiculously sensitive to to mould spores. Even old newspaper can be harmful to them, let alone something like corncob, moss or peat bedding. Ventilation is absolutely crucial to them.

Parrots create mess - through chewing up wood toys and, importantly, flinging their food around. Most of our parrots are fed fresh vegetables and fruit daily, and I don't think an invertebrate population could keep on top of the amount of food my bird throws around before it rots. It's also essential to keep an eye on their droppings. By the time a bird looks sick (hunched up, fluffed up, on the floor of the cage), they can be pretty much dying.

We are already keeping our parrots in much smaller enclosures and usually much closer to the ground and, crucually, their droppings. Ramping that up by having a moist environment (for the bugs), a sealed tank and the amount of food that even a smallish parrot wastes would create a very dangerous environment for a bird.

 

[Mizzely]

Yeah my bioactive Facebook groups get excited when there is a fungus or mold in their tank as it's more food for the CUC. For parrots that can be deadly!

 

[JLcribber]

Hi everyone,

Joined here to ask a question that's been on my mind recently. Why aren't bioactive bird setups a thing that's done more often (if at all)?

Let me elaborate a bit. I'm a reptile guy by nature, but I love the larger birds as well. In reptile keeping, the "traditional" way to do things has always been to set up a cage large enough for the animal, clean the cage whenever needed, feed, water, and if you choose to, socialize your animals. That's pretty much the basics of reptiles, amphibians, and invertebrates. Now, going into this - I absolutely realize that birds and mammals tend to be far more complex than cold-blooded animals, just by nature. But, hear me out.

Somewhere along the line, people realized that a large step of this process can be taken out - the cleaning. By keeping animals in a very naturalistic setup, with a clean up crew consisting of small invertebrates (usually springtails and isopods), a completely maintenance-free enclosure can be built - these are known as bioactive setups. Using more natural substrates, a living clean up crew, and optionally natural furnishings, it's possible to build an ecosystem that is entirely self-sustaining, and works on even the largest animals in our hobby. A good example would be large monitors - they eat a lot, produce a ton of waste, and yet we can still create a captive environment for them that is nearly maintenance free, allowing us to spend more time interacting with and observing the animals, and less time focusing on maintenance.
This has even been used in some cases with small mammals, like hedgehogs. Almost any poison dart frog display you can find is set up to be bioactive, for ease of maintenance. And the list goes on and on and on.

Now, here's where things change a bit - this entire concept of bioactivity has not caught on with birds yet (to my knowledge). Substrates seem to be replaced, even in the largest of outdoor setups, with bare concrete, sand, or gravel floors that are easier swept or hosed clean. But, I don't see any reason that in a large outdoor (or even indoor) aviary, a natural substrate, with healthy populations of invertebrates to handle waste, couldn't be utilized to make cleaning non-existent.

What is the reasoning behind this not being a thing in the bird hobby? Is it that the majority of keepers just don't know this exists? Has it been tried, and failed for some reason? Would love to hear some thoughts and discuss a bit further.
Take care,
Drew

It's a fabulous concept. What you're really talking about is a zoo grade enclosure (which can not be done indoors). Which comes along with the cost to build it along with the scientific expertise to do it correctly. Then being outside that eliminates a huge majority of places simply because the climate is not agreeable. Many things to consider. Native/non native bugs/plants. etc.

 

[JLcribber]

I think you're trying to compare vastly different animals, with vastly different physiologies. I think bioactive environments for invertebrates, amphibians and reptiles are fascinating and often gorgeously designed, but I cannot see this kind of set-up working for parrots.

I agree.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Parrots have a ridiculously sensitive respiratory system. They get every bit of contaminants out of a breath of air - they breath every breath twice. Molds, fungus and most VOCs are deadly to them. And yes aspergillosis, one of the deadliest diseases for birds, thrives on decaying wood and damp places. We keep high performing air purifiers near our birds, provide circulation of fresh air and deny ourselves the use of candles, spray cans, perfume, room fresheners, teflon coated appliances and cookware - on and on - to protect our bird's respiratory system and health.

Here is a very good presentation of the complexity of a bird's respiratory system.

 

[Pockets]

This is fun to think about! Thanks for posting.
I think it's a great topic for speculation. Many other posters have given reasons why it could be dangerous to birds - so I won't add to that. I'm going to focus on logistics.

I think the key difference to discuss between a bioactive setup for reptiles and a bioactive setup for birds is the feeding habits of various companion bird species. I have a bioactive green anole setup that's very successful, so I definitely understand the basics of bioactivity. Things that want to grow have to be able to grow, things that have to eat have to be able to eat, and all of this has to happen in a setup with some semblance of 'balance'. The reason my bioactive setup thrives is because my anole isn't walking around with a pair of investigative face scissors, lopping off any plant material that might be of interest.

The reasons many bioactive vivariums function is because the inhabitants aren't so destructive that the plants can't keep up with the damage. This, of course, is done very successfully on a large scale in zoos and aviaries, because they're so freakin' large. That said, many of the indoor and outdoor aviaries that I've visited have employed large dead trees among the living in order to provide perching habitat that isn't going to be shredded.

In an indoor living setup for herbivore/frugivore avian species, there are simply very few plants (especially that could live in an *indoor* environment) that can grow at the same or more rapid a pace than the birds would damage. There is also much more waste input in a small space than a typical insect cleanup crew could tend to (though I know you aren't suggesting a no-maintenance bioactive setup!) For small flocks in large outdoor aviaries, this changes a bit as fine fescues, smaller grasses, fast growing evergreen tropicals, and some tree species can keep up with all of the flying sets of pruning shears. Unfortunately, there are very few indoor plant species that behave like our fast growing outdoor clumping grasses.

Barring concerns about soil fungi (which are legitimate) The only ways I could see this being functional are: A. Few Birds, B. Massive Space, C. Replicating outdoor light conditions to allow more plant options. D. Replacing plants frequently.

Source for all of my speculative stuff: Landscape architect that has worked on interior and exterior planting projects at various scales in urban environs - and also a birdo lover!

 

[Pyropus]

Another thing for outdoor ones is safe sand, I saw one family with birds even if they been assured the sand was safe, after an incident descided to stop using sand in aviaries, because it was so hard making sure and they did not want to have to wonder if even the small values they found in the sand had mathered in the incident and risk it happen again.

RIP Bandit Boy

I know many of you are wondering what happened to Bandit, my male galah who was 11 years old, whom died while we were just a few days into a road trip that would lead to a Freeflight trip at a location he’d never been flying at, that I was so excited to take him. Day 1: I picked him up from my...

birdtricksstore.com

I would not want sand around, so much that can be in it and live in it that you cant easily controll.

 

[kangadrew]

It's been great reading everyone's replies - thanks for the discussion! Before addressing certain concerns, let me clarify what I mean a bit:

1. We would be talking about a large, outdoor enclosure in a warm climate. This would limit such a setup to perhaps 14 or 15 states in the US, primarily Florida and southern California.
2. As such, we would be building an appropriate enclosure for birds - built with some sort of metal and wire framing and walls, not enclosed like a reptile enclosure would be. As far as mentioning reptiles, they were simply included as an example of what bioactive setups are typically used for.
3. This would definitely be a large-scale project, with a small bird population in a large area, something of a zoo-quality build.

Perhaps the question would be better off changed to "Why aren't naturalistic/bioactive bird enclosures a thing?". I've been lucky enough to personally see a number of private enclosures that rival the quality of those seen in zoos - there are crocodile facilities in Florida, plus enclosures for dart frogs, monitors, turtles and tortoises, both freshwater and saltwater fish, and small mammals throughout the country. But I've yet to see anything of the sort for birds. Do these exist at all, or am I just not looking in the right spots?

 

[kangadrew]

Like Mizzely said it is actually really important to be able to asses the droppings on a daily basis.

One other big concern would be cross-contamination. I see no reasonable way to keep the critters in the enclosure, preventing them from bringing harmful bacteria/viruses/funghi in.

Speaking of which... Funghi and Aspergillosis, which can be found in the soil, when damp... But most bugs need atleast a bit of damp, right?

Parrots mostly take to high ground (in the treetops, or high perches in an aviary), but will go to floor level to forage.. Where the cross-contamination comes into play. Captive birds haven't had constant exposure in reasonable amounts to develop the appropriate immunities.

I would really consider it a health risk for my birds.

I would wonder, then, how zoos that keep their birds on substrates are able to assess droppings. I can think of facilities like the National Aquarium in Baltimore that have a number of small species in a very large, free-flight exhibit - surely they're not assessing each bird's droppings, or capturing individual birds for vet check-ups on a regular basis. Might be an interesting question to send them, but it would suggest that there are other ways of assessing a bird's health. Then again, those might be extremely costly or time-intensive for even the most dedicated private keepers, without a full staff.

Also with the cross-contamination - are we to assume that birds kept in outdoor enclosures, whether public or private, aren't exposed to any kind of contaminants? Sorry if my tone sounds a bit argumentative, I don't mean to be, just playing devil's advocate for the idea. I have no stakes in the game, just interested to see whether it would be a feasible idea for a large-scale private keeper.

I think you're trying to compare vastly different animals, with vastly different physiologies. I think bioactive environments for invertebrates, amphibians and reptiles are fascinating and often gorgeously designed, but I cannot see this kind of set-up working for parrots.

Parrots (with the exception of kakapo) evolved to live in the trees, only coming to the ground to forage. They would fly miles each day. A 10x10 permanant enclosure is considered small by a parrot's standards. Most of our parrots have a good three hours out of their cage a day and even then it can be a fight to get them flying enough to keep their hearts, weights and respiratory systems healthy. Birds' respiratory systems are ridiculously, ridiculously sensitive to to mould spores. Even old newspaper can be harmful to them, let alone something like corncob, moss or peat bedding. Ventilation is absolutely crucial to them.

Parrots create mess - through chewing up wood toys and, importantly, flinging their food around. Most of our parrots are fed fresh vegetables and fruit daily, and I don't think an invertebrate population could keep on top of the amount of food my bird throws around before it rots. It's also essential to keep an eye on their droppings. By the time a bird looks sick (hunched up, fluffed up, on the floor of the cage), they can be pretty much dying.

We are already keeping our parrots in much smaller enclosures and usually much closer to the ground and, crucually, their droppings. Ramping that up by having a moist environment (for the bugs), a sealed tank and the amount of food that even a smallish parrot wastes would create a very dangerous environment for a bird.

We are definitely talking about a large scale, open-air, outdoor enclosure, definitely larger than 10x10 (unless perhaps for some of the smallest available species), and certainly not something sealed - sorry for that confusion. As for the amount of food waste, I would argue that the invertebrates could certainly keep up with it. People have placed whole rats inside of very small bioactive vivariums, and within days they are broken down to no more than a skeleton. In something the size we are discussing, the population would be so large, over such a large area, that it would take a massive amount of waste to slow their processes.

It's a fabulous concept. What you're really talking about is a zoo grade enclosure (which can not be done indoors). Which comes along with the cost to build it along with the scientific expertise to do it correctly. Then being outside that eliminates a huge majority of places simply because the climate is not agreeable. Many things to consider. Native/non native bugs/plants. etc.

We are definitely talking about something zoo-quality, and very likely outdoors. I can think of a few exhibits that have been built indoors (National Aquarium's Upland Tropical Rainforest comes to mind), but this is such a massive build that it's unlikely any private keeper would be able to recreate it.

This is fun to think about! Thanks for posting.
I think it's a great topic for speculation. Many other posters have given reasons why it could be dangerous to birds - so I won't add to that. I'm going to focus on logistics.

I think the key difference to discuss between a bioactive setup for reptiles and a bioactive setup for birds is the feeding habits of various companion bird species. I have a bioactive green anole setup that's very successful, so I definitely understand the basics of bioactivity. Things that want to grow have to be able to grow, things that have to eat have to be able to eat, and all of this has to happen in a setup with some semblance of 'balance'. The reason my bioactive setup thrives is because my anole isn't walking around with a pair of investigative face scissors, lopping off any plant material that might be of interest.

The reasons many bioactive vivariums function is because the inhabitants aren't so destructive that the plants can't keep up with the damage. This, of course, is done very successfully on a large scale in zoos and aviaries, because they're so freakin' large. That said, many of the indoor and outdoor aviaries that I've visited have employed large dead trees among the living in order to provide perching habitat that isn't going to be shredded.

In an indoor living setup for herbivore/frugivore avian species, there are simply very few plants (especially that could live in an *indoor* environment) that can grow at the same or more rapid a pace than the birds would damage. There is also much more waste input in a small space than a typical insect cleanup crew could tend to (though I know you aren't suggesting a no-maintenance bioactive setup!) For small flocks in large outdoor aviaries, this changes a bit as fine fescues, smaller grasses, fast growing evergreen tropicals, and some tree species can keep up with all of the flying sets of pruning shears. Unfortunately, there are very few indoor plant species that behave like our fast growing outdoor clumping grasses.

Barring concerns about soil fungi (which are legitimate) The only ways I could see this being functional are: A. Few Birds, B. Massive Space, C. Replicating outdoor light conditions to allow more plant options. D. Replacing plants frequently.

Source for all of my speculative stuff: Landscape architect that has worked on interior and exterior planting projects at various scales in urban environs - and also a birdo lover!

Thanks for the expertise! The plant selection would be a major component, and they would likely need to be replaced often - although plants aren't necessarily required for a bioactive enclosure. I've kept my leopard geckos bioactive for nearly 3 years now, without any live plants in the enclosure. The clean up crew thrives off of waste, decaying leaves, and the occasional feeding (which would be mimicked in an aviary by the food waste from the birds). You are certainly right - it would require a very large, outdoor space, for a small bird population, with a lot of maintenance in terms of any live plants.

 

[Pockets]

Thanks for the expertise! The plant selection would be a major component, and they would likely need to be replaced often - although plants aren't necessarily required for a bioactive enclosure. I've kept my leopard geckos bioactive for nearly 3 years now, without any live plants in the enclosure. The clean up crew thrives off of waste, decaying leaves, and the occasional feeding (which would be mimicked in an aviary by the food waste from the birds). You are certainly right - it would require a very large, outdoor space, for a small bird population, with a lot of maintenance in terms of any live plants.

It can definitely be done successfully in an outdoor exhibit/enclosure. There is a large aviary at the Queens zoo for example that works in this way - with what I imagine is a fair amount of maintenance on the part of the keepers. The hydrology is controlled, however - their ponds are part of a closed water system.

A bioactive leopard gecko sounds wonderful! I bet they're quite happy in there.

I think my focus on the plants is just personal interest, combined with personal aesthetics! I would want any birdos to have lots of natural shade and live branches for chewing.

Thanks again for prompting a fun discussion!

 

[Tanya]

Parrots are so dang destructive. I can't imagine any sort of plant-based landscaping lasting more than a few days in an enclosure the size of a bedroom room. Maybe an acre or so of growing stuff would have a chance, apart from their favorite chew sticks. Or I would need a really big budget to keep replacing shredded plants. Also, do any of your birds experiment with eating insects? Mine seem to be terrified of all the creepy crawlies. I'm sure they'd get used to it, but the transition to an ecosystem would undoubtedly be somewhat traumatic for my 'toos.