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Advice on getting over fear

Monica

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Most great bird trainers do not mention "dominance" or "alpha" myths at all... and one that does? She simply points out how it's not beneficial to working with birds.

The Struggle for Dominance (PDF)


Which actually leads into this article.... people who follow the dominance/alpha myth often believe that birds must be handled in a specific manner... when they don't need to be at all

Alternatives to Breaking Parrots (PDF)
 

sunnysmom

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Maybe read some books on bird behavior- like Good Bird by Barbara Heidenreich. I think it's helpful to understand why a bird acts the way he does. Then you can start tackling the problem. And as was mentioned before, birds do sense fear. My cockatoo will walk all over someone who is nervous around him. I understand that it's hard to get over being nervous but I think if you just take things slow, you'll learn to trust each other. :)
 

GoDucks

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The best suggestions I have are:
Try to lower your fear. You need to be the Alpha. Right now he is the Alpha.
Get up higher than the bird, which shows him you are the dominate/Alpha one.

I was always wondering about that theory because my goffin will step up on my hand if he is lower than me- but forget it- if he is at eye level or on something that is higher than myself.


Take your time & work slowly. Give him time to adjust to you & trust you.
[/QUOTE]
 

KieranKD

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I don't believe in showing dominance over an animal. Humans simply can't communicate the same way another animal can, and they know that. I've been around and training dogs for 22 years. If a dominance/alpha ideology can cause behavioral issues in DOGS - an animal who has been bred for hundreds of years to work for and please humans - I can't imagine what behavioral issues it could cause in an animal that is not even fully domesticated. this ideology is very harmful for training; a dog who has never been leashed trained walks in-front of his person, and because of this person's idealogy, they punish the dog for being disrespectful and usurping their "dominance" over the dog. The realities of this behavior is not a well-trained, polite dog but a dog who will eventually become scared of walks. And while their fear may give you the desired behavior, a lot of the times fear will cause more behavioral issues and ultimately damage the relationship between you and your dog.​
I admit, I'm still learning and know very little of bird behavior, but I know dogs do not think of us in their dog heirachies. They know we are not dogs, they naturally look for us for guidance and have been bred to want to please us. Birds have not had years of selective breeding to want to do this, but I assume they are also smart enough to know we are not birds, and are very unlikely to think of us in an alpha/omega light.​
I watch birdtricks on youtube, she's a professional traininer. She says it's a lot easier for birds to step up than to step down, which I find far more likely to be why a bird won't step down when it's above you than an ideology.​
 

GoDucks

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I don't believe in showing dominance over an animal. Humans simply can't communicate the same way another animal can, and they know that. I've been around and training dogs for 22 years. If a dominance/alpha ideology can cause behavioral issues in DOGS - an animal who has been bred for hundreds of years to work for and please humans - I can't imagine what behavioral issues it could cause in an animal that is not even fully domesticated. this ideology is very harmful for training; a dog who has never been leashed trained walks in-front of his person, and because of this person's idealogy, they punish the dog for being disrespectful and usurping their "dominance" over the dog. The realities of this behavior is not a well-trained, polite dog but a dog who will eventually become scared of walks. And while their fear may give you the desired behavior, a lot of the times fear will cause more behavioral issues and ultimately damage the relationship between you and your dog.​
I admit, I'm still learning and know very little of bird behavior, but I know dogs do not think of us in their dog heirachies. They know we are not dogs, they naturally look for us for guidance and have been bred to want to please us. Birds have not had years of selective breeding to want to do this, but I assume they are also smart enough to know we are not birds, and are very unlikely to think of us in an alpha/omega light.​
I watch birdtricks on youtube, she's a professional traininer. She says it's a lot easier for birds to step up than to step down, which I find far more likely to be why a bird won't step down when it's above you than an ideology.​

"they punish the dog for being disrespectful and usurping their "dominance"

What you are describing is abuse and I have little tolerance for that. Any relationship between a person and an animal should be built on trust and the moment you decide to strike an animal, you have destroyed that trust.
.

"I watch birdtricks on youtube, she's a professional traininer. She says it's a lot easier for birds to step up than to step down, which I find far more likely to be why a bird won't step down when it's above you than an ideology."

That makes sense but I also mentioned eye- level as well.
 
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KieranKD

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And if that works for you and your bird and you're both happy then that's fine. I just personally don't subscribe to that ideology and wouldn't like to use it in becoming unafraid and going from stranger to friends.​
 

GoDucks

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And if that works for you and your bird and you're both happy then that's fine. I just personally don't subscribe to that ideology and wouldn't like to use it in becoming unafraid and going from stranger to friends.​

I honestly don't know who you are commenting to because you aren't using the reply button. But if it is me, please rest assure that with everything that I have written, you and I are on the same page. In fact, I know that all of us are on that page. :)
 

Sodapop&Co.

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A quick note re: the "dominance" issue. Instead of "alpha" or "dominance" try using the word "leader" or "leadership". I'm quite sure that's more what you mean and it's also a better concept :) You want your bird to trust you as a leader (like a parent ;)). In horse training, as well, loads of people talk about dominance and being the alpha and that can piss others off but if they're legit horsepeople who understand and work well with the horse then I always know what they actually mean by the term is leadership.
 

GoDucks

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A quick note re: the "dominance" issue. Instead of "alpha" or "dominance" try using the word "leader" or "leadership". I'm quite sure that's more what you mean and it's also a better concept :) You want your bird to trust you as a leader (like a parent ;)). In horse training, as well, loads of people talk about dominance and being the alpha and that can piss others off but if they're legit horsepeople who understand and work well with the horse then I always know what they actually mean by the term is leadership.

Who are you replying to- lol- you aren't using the reply button either. Oh well, if its not me, I will mind my own business

It also depends on what animals we are refering to, if you happen to be with a pack of wolves than you better expect and respect that there is a chain of command

I do think your choice of words is spot on. and it is a lot more respectful.
 

Sodapop&Co.

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Who are you replying to- lol- you aren't using the reply button either. Oh well, if its not me, I will mind my own business

It also depends on what animals we are refering to, if you happen to be with a pack of wolves than you better expect and respect that there is a chain of command

I do think your choice of words is spot on. and it is a lot more respectful.
I was replying to the general discussion ;) Yep, definitely depends on the animals, although I personally can't think of a single species that wouldn't benefit from a relationship based on respect and love. I guess some animals just learn to do without.
 

Monica

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I was always wondering about that theory because my goffin will step up on my hand if he is lower than me- but forget it- if he is at eye level or on something that is higher than myself.
My birds will step up for me even if they are higher than me. They've come to learn that stepping up means good things. Birds who are confident may also be more willing to step down than a bird who is insecure. Height equals safety, so if you think about it in terms like that, it's easier to understand why many birds prefer being up high. They can better watch their surroundings for danger. (even if there is no danger to be had!)



I don't believe in showing dominance over an animal. Humans simply can't communicate the same way another animal can, and they know that. I've been around and training dogs for 22 years. If a dominance/alpha ideology can cause behavioral issues in DOGS - an animal who has been bred for hundreds of years to work for and please humans - I can't imagine what behavioral issues it could cause in an animal that is not even fully domesticated. this ideology is very harmful for training; a dog who has never been leashed trained walks in-front of his person, and because of this person's idealogy, they punish the dog for being disrespectful and usurping their "dominance" over the dog. The realities of this behavior is not a well-trained, polite dog but a dog who will eventually become scared of walks. And while their fear may give you the desired behavior, a lot of the times fear will cause more behavioral issues and ultimately damage the relationship between you and your dog.​
I admit, I'm still learning and know very little of bird behavior, but I know dogs do not think of us in their dog heirachies. They know we are not dogs, they naturally look for us for guidance and have been bred to want to please us. Birds have not had years of selective breeding to want to do this, but I assume they are also smart enough to know we are not birds, and are very unlikely to think of us in an alpha/omega light.​
I watch birdtricks on youtube, she's a professional traininer. She says it's a lot easier for birds to step up than to step down, which I find far more likely to be why a bird won't step down when it's above you than an ideology.​
Love what you said about working with dogs! And it's so true! It's a shame that so many people still believe in that myth... :(

A problem with birds though is that we handraise most of them, thus imprinting them to us in an unhealthy way... then we don't socialize them with other birds once we take them home or what have you... we don't encourage independent play... it's no wonder we have behavioral issues! I mean, think about taking a puppy away from his/her mother before the pup is weaned, raising the pup by hand, then not socializing that pup with other puppies or even strangers. I'm sure you can imagine the potential behaviorial issues that pup will grow up with! A lot is similar with birds.

As far as BirdTricks go... they are sales people, not professional trainers. They still have a lot to learn. I actually have recommendations over them, people who are professional trainers and behaviorists, as well as people who have, IMO, a better understanding of training than BT does. These people can be found within the link below. :)



It also depends on what animals we are refering to, if you happen to be with a pack of wolves than you better expect and respect that there is a chain of command
Unfortunately, the alpha/dominance is a myth in wolves... the very scientist who coined the term regrets doing so...

 

GoDucks

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My birds will step up for me even if they are higher than me. They've come to learn that stepping up means good things. Birds who are confident may also be more willing to step down than a bird who is insecure. Height equals safety, so if you think about it in terms like that, it's easier to understand why many birds prefer being up high. They can better watch their surroundings for danger. (even if there is no danger to be had!)

Thank you for telling me this.

Unfortunately, the alpha/dominance is a myth in wolves... the very scientist who coined the term regrets doing so...

So there is no structure within wolf packs? This is what I was always told, (and yes, I am quoting):

"A wolf pack has a definite social structure and rules of conduct. The pack leaders are the alpha male and female. These two animals are dominant over all the other wolves in the pack. The alpha male and female are the only wolves that breed and produce pups in the pack, and they also get to eat first at kills."

I didn't know about the last part which almost puts them on par with lions. I say almost because I have been told that the female lions have to eat last.

I am going to watch the video when I get home, thank you, Monica.


I'll be darn, learn something new everyday.
 
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Monica

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So there is no structure within wolf packs? I'll be darn, learn something new everyday.
It's not that there isn't any structure... it's just not understood correctly.


The idea of dominance came about by taking unrelated wolves and sticking them in an enclosed area to see how they would interact and form a pack. The problem with this is the fact that a wolf pack is made up of a *family* of wolves, not strange wolves that are unable to get away from each other and end up fighting. That family may or may not include lone wolves from other packs.

California has been "following" a male wolf from Oregon. He came down into California with a female (not sure from where?), bred with the female, creating wolf pups, then he left and traveled back to Oregon to pair up with a different female. Apparently, some of the pups from his newer litters in Oregon have also been traveling down into California.




The dogs that would be considered the "alphas" are the parents. They are the ones that bred and had offspring. (not the ones that asserted dominance in a group of strange wolves) An "omega" could be an unrelated wolf to the pack or maybe a shyer offspring. Beta wolves could be older offspring of the pack (pack has had more than one litter, some of the older generation has stuck around) or perhaps a relative in some way or another to said pack.


In short, the dominance myth was not based on wolves in their natural habitat. To truly understand wolf packs, we must study them in their natural habitat. :)
 

BertAllen

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@KieranKD Is there any bird rescues close enough that you might be able to volunteer at and get more experience with larger birds.

In the mean time do what my Grand daughter did with Tinker (she was afraid of him when he was in his biting stage) she sat close and put a treat near by while she talked to him. Eventually he came over for the treat. She never attempted to touch him at all but one day she forgot the treat and he came over to her knee looking. I slipped his treat into her hand and she put it on the couch beside her. She now spends more time playing with him than visiting us.

Give him a reason to come to you because he wants to, not because you want him to.

By the way I had my index finger broken with a wild Macaw when I was in my early teens. It scared the "H" out of me but over a period of six months he was sitting on my arm. It was a bird at an importers that we knew. The owner let me visit everyday after school and he never sold that bird and I understand his son has him now. We lost track of them over the years.
 

tka

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It's not that there isn't any structure... it's just not understood correctly.

The idea of dominance came about by taking unrelated wolves and sticking them in an enclosed area to see how they would interact and form a pack. The problem with this is the fact that a wolf pack is made up of a *family* of wolves, not strange wolves that are unable to get away from each other and end up fighting. That family may or may not include lone wolves from other packs.

The dogs that would be considered the "alphas" are the parents. They are the ones that bred and had offspring. (not the ones that asserted dominance in a group of strange wolves) An "omega" could be an unrelated wolf to the pack or maybe a shyer offspring. Beta wolves could be older offspring of the pack (pack has had more than one litter, some of the older generation has stuck around) or perhaps a relative in some way or another to said pack.

In short, the dominance myth was not based on wolves in their natural habitat. To truly understand wolf packs, we must study them in their natural habitat. :)
I read John Bradshaw's In Defence of Dogs a few years ago and it goes into a lot more detail about this idea - here's a review summarising the book: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/jul/24/in-defence-of-dogs-review

Basically, we took our ideas about wolves from observing them in a highly unnatural, incredibly stressful environment. Their behaviours were those of stressed, unhappy wolves. They were aggressive and highly protective of food resources because they were chucked into too small a space with strangers. Wild wolf territories are huge and wild wolf packs are very careful about signalling who belongs where precisely to avoid confrontation.

RE not stepping down - many parrot flocks have at least one parrot acting as a sentinel while the rest of the flock feeds, plays or naps. The rest of the flock can get on with whatever they're doing and trust that the sentinel bird(s) will sound the alarm if there's any danger. Sentinels do swap roles and observers of wild parrot flocks notice that after a while, another bird will climb or fly to the observation post to relieve the sentinel bird of their duties so they can eat, relax, play etc. Your bird may think that they need to occupy a sentinel role in your 'flock' at home. Being up high also makes a lot of birds feel safer. Again, it's not a dominance behaviour and treating it as such fundamentally misunderstands what's going on.
 

GoDucks

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It's not that there isn't any structure... it's just not understood correctly.


The idea of dominance came about by taking unrelated wolves and sticking them in an enclosed area to see how they would interact and form a pack. The problem with this is the fact that a wolf pack is made up of a *family* of wolves, not strange wolves that are unable to get away from each other and end up fighting. That family may or may not include lone wolves from other packs.

California has been "following" a male wolf from Oregon. He came down into California with a female (not sure from where?), bred with the female, creating wolf pups, then he left and traveled back to Oregon to pair up with a different female. Apparently, some of the pups from his newer litters in Oregon have also been traveling down into California.




The dogs that would be considered the "alphas" are the parents. They are the ones that bred and had offspring. (not the ones that asserted dominance in a group of strange wolves) An "omega" could be an unrelated wolf to the pack or maybe a shyer offspring. Beta wolves could be older offspring of the pack (pack has had more than one litter, some of the older generation has stuck around) or perhaps a relative in some way or another to said pack.


In short, the dominance myth was not based on wolves in their natural habitat. To truly understand wolf packs, we must study them in their natural habitat. :)




I understand, what I was trying to convey was that certain animals like wolves and lions depend on a structure within their pack/pride, in fact their species survival is built upon that system. Now whether or not a human can ingratiate themselves into that order is a whole different ballgame.

Birds, I know nothing about, which is why I joined this site. :)
 
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