A question about behavior (with video)

[Monica]

Being "submissive" is considered to be a good thing. Learned helplessness is not.

I would rather people see the behavior for what it is, then empower their animals to learn rather than thinking that the animal, having simply given up, is being submissive and it's a good thing.

 

[Lori D Pert]

It doesn't have to be, but training birds to do various behaviors can be a great way to earn trust and challenge their minds.

I guess my point is that the trust must come first. Birds are not dogs as dogs do not see us as predators.

 

[Monica]

Actually, trust does not need to come before training! You can train an animal that doesn't trust you as long as you know how to work with that animal. Think about zoo animals for instance... tigers, lions and other potentially dangerous animals. Zoo personal train these animals to perform basic behaviors so that bloodwork can be drawn, teeth checked, etc.

But it's not just dangerous animals either.... it works great for prey type!

It's through training that animals can learn to trust humans because they learn that if I perform this behavior, that happens then I get a reward.


The videos may not show animals that are afraid, but using the same type of training for an animal that is terrified of humans does work! Yes, trust from the animal can make training easier, I'm simply stating that trust is not required in order to train them, and that trust can be built through training.

 

[Lori D Pert]

I guess I like my little girl feisty with some free will of her own. Now if she were a tiger who could rip my face off at any moment, well that might be a different story...lol

 

[Begone]

I guess my point is that the trust must come first. Birds are not dogs as dogs do not see us as predators.

I agree with you. I never train my new birds in a way so I enter their private sphere or things that are demanding in any way.
But I do train them so they faster can find out that they can trust me.
Often very small things, like placing something good in different places and after I place it I back away. When they seems to enjoy the game I make them land closer and closer to me. But I never touch them, not even when they land on me in the beginning.
And as you say, we are predators, that's why I never look straight at them or in their eyes.

I don't train birds as I train a dog, but everything I do to become friend with a bird comes from my way of training horses.
If you know how to communicate with a horse you will soon find out that it's working great with birds too. And they are both prey animals that flee away from danger.

 

[Monica]

@Eloy What you are saying kind of contradicts what Lori D is saying... because you are training the birds prior to gaining their trust! You ear earning their trust *through* training! Nothing wrong with that!

 

[Begone]

@Eloy What you are saying kind of contradicts what Lori D is saying... because you are training the birds prior to gaining their trust! You ear earning their trust *through* training! Nothing wrong with that!

No, not really. As I said: "I never train my new birds in a way so I enter their private sphere or things that are demanding in any way."
And now when I read that line again I realize that I never enter my birds private sphere if they don't want it. And everything I do to them and they do for me is their will.
(daily training, and not emergency things, medication or nail filing of course)

The training I do with them is more positive reinforcement. "This is me, I'm kind, I will not demand anything, I understand that you are afraid or feel uncomfortable in your new home, I will not enter your private sphere until you want it, I can sing to you, I can talk to you, I can offer you my food if you want it, I can play with toys and you can join if you want to, I will give you treats so you understand that all I ever wanted is to become your friend."
The training I avoid is first of all step-ups. For me that is a "trust thing". When the bird wanted my company it will gladly step up or fly to my shoulder. It's not something I will ever train them to do.
But I do love trick-training, and I haven't (yet) have a bird not enjoying it. I think it's part that they like my enthusiasm, they see that I'm happy and like what they do, but also they need exercise of muscles and brain, just like us.

 

[Monica]

I didn't say that you enter the birds space or demand anything of them.... I simply stated that you do train them before gaining their trust, which is what you *are* doing! Gaining trust through training!

 

[Lori D Pert]

No, not really. As I said: "I never train my new birds in a way so I enter their private sphere or things that are demanding in any way."
And now when I read that line again I realize that I never enter my birds private sphere if they don't want it. And everything I do to them and they do for me is their will.
(daily training, and not emergency things, medication or nail filing of course)

The training I do with them is more positive reinforcement. "This is me, I'm kind, I will not demand anything, I understand that you are afraid or feel uncomfortable in your new home, I will not enter your private sphere until you want it, I can sing to you, I can talk to you, I can offer you my food if you want it, I can play with toys and you can join if you want to, I will give you treats so you understand that all I ever wanted is to become your friend."
The training I avoid is first of all step-ups. For me that is a "trust thing". When the bird wanted my company it will gladly step up or fly to my shoulder. It's not something I will ever train them to do.
But I do love trick-training, and I haven't (yet) have a bird not enjoying it. I think it's part that they like my enthusiasm, they see that I'm happy and like what they do, but also they need exercise of muscles and brain, just like us.

Exactly!!! Well said and I totally agree. Sam certainly now will step up, fly to my shoulder and talk to me but she chooses to do these things as she has a playful nature and wants to interact with me. This did not happen overnight, it happened after she started to trust me and accept me as a member of her flock (her flock not mine). I would never force her to do anything that she does not want to do. Nail clipping and vet visits excepted of course.

 

[Monica]

Exactly!!! Well said and I totally agree. Sam certainly now will step up, fly to my shoulder and talk to me but she chooses to do these things as she has a playful nature and wants to interact with me. This did not happen overnight, it happened after she started to trust me and accept me as a member of her flock (her flock not mine). I would never force her to do anything that she does not want to do. Nail clipping and vet visits excepted of course.

So how did Sam learn to trust you?

 

[Lori D Pert]

So how did Sam learn to trust you?

Somehow I believe you are going to tell me that I trained her to trust me which I believe to be incorrect. I started by sitting by her cage and talking softly to her. When she started to move to sit next to me in her cage I started bringing my hands up to both my face and the rungs of her cage. When she stopped being jumpy when I did that I opened the door to her cage and spoke to her. She started coming up to me and nibbling my nose. Next was a safe place to let her out. A bedroom with good places for her to land. Once her flying was no longer clumsy and she could get in and out of her cage by herself I let her out in the rest of the house. After that she started flying to me. As her trust grew I started giving her playgyms throughout the house. She now owns the house...lol. She is a feisty girl and not much fear in her. She tamed quickly but this is basically the method I have used with every bird I have had through the years. Some tamed quicker than others but they all grew to trust me. Stepping up came after trust was established.

 

[Monica]

@Lori D Pert That's correct... although you may not think of it as training, what you did to earn Sam's trust *was* training! She was learning that you aren't scary and don't need to be feared.

If you simply fed her, gave her water and otherwise ignored her, then she simply decided she liked you on no effort on your part, then that wouldn't be training at all! Instead, you worked with her to get over her fear of you and worked with her in a way that you knew you would be able to earn her trust.

 

[Lori D Pert]

This may be the differences in our vocabulary but I do not consider "submissiveness" to be a good thing and I think "learned helplessness" is some bizarre kind of oxymoron,l would also never consider something trusting me to be "training them". I will agree to disagree here but to me taming is not exerting control or conditioning behavior, it is earning trust and yes the onus is on me to earn that trust. Trust and training are two separate things as far as I'm concerned. However perhaps this is just my way of thinking.

 

[Ripshod]

Trust and training are two separate things as far as I'm concerned. However perhaps this is just my way of thinking.

You're not alone in that thinking. Trust must always come first. A parrot will 'learn' nothing from someone/something they don't trust.
As far as training goes it works both ways. A happy life is about compromise, in all relationships.
Sorry for my blow-up earlier. It was unwarranted and totally in the wrong place.

 

[Lori D Pert]

You're not alone in that thinking. Trust must always come first. A parrot will 'learn' nothing from someone/something they don't trust.
As far as training goes it works both ways. A happy life is about compromise, in all relationships.
Sorry for my blow-up earlier. It was unwarranted and totally in the wrong place.

Thank you, I was starting to doubt myself..lol...and no worries, totally understand

 

[Melli]

Oh my gosh! She is soooo adorable! I have not seen ANY of mine ever roll on their back... but we don't have any of those balls either! BACK to PetSmart I goooo! Lol!

 

[Miss_sj]

Strange but I don't consider the word "tame" to mean performing on demand. I never wanted any of my birds to jump on my finger immediately when I offer it, or put a ball in the basket or even run up and down a ladder when I present one. I consider tame to mean they have no fear of us. They fly on our shoulder when we leave the room, they call out to us when they can't see us, they taste our food and preen us. In other words they have chosen to love us.

I love this sentiment! It is evident that Sam feels really safe with you. I also haven't done much in the way of 'formal training ' however we have somehow established this "double tap" thing which seems to mean "come here!"

My boyfriend has this game they made up together- he had never been around birds before. Flynn sits on his leg, and my bf taps his beak- quite roughly, and Flynn runs down his leg dancing. Then my bf taps his own leg twice, and Flynn runs back towards the finger and crouches down expectantly for the next poke. I told him the first time I saw this game, thinking its too rough but Flynn LOVES it and shows he wants to play by headbutting his finger. Strange bird!

I've "double tapped" myself to see what happens and Flynn zooms over in a flash. I guess its some form of training!

 

[Lori D Pert]

I love this sentiment! It is evident that Sam feels really safe with you. I also haven't done much in the way of 'formal training ' however we have somehow established this "double tap" thing which seems to mean "come here!"

My boyfriend has this game they made up together- he had never been around birds before. Flynn sits on his leg, and my bf taps his beak- quite roughly, and Flynn runs down his leg dancing. Then my bf taps his own leg twice, and Flynn runs back towards the finger and crouches down expectantly for the next poke. I told him the first time I saw this game, thinking its too rough but Flynn LOVES it and shows he wants to play by headbutting his finger. Strange bird!

I've "double tapped" myself to see what happens and Flynn zooms over in a flash. I guess its some form of training!

Oh that is adorable..only a budgie who is completely at ease with his "hoomans" will do this. So you both trained each other really...lol. He showed you that a double tap would bring him over..smart bird!! Sam does the beak tap thing too. Usually when I am typing on the computer she will come up to my finger and tap it and I tap her beak back and she spins in circles (I call it her happy dance) and then comes back to repeat it all again. I can't double tap her over to me though. She comes when SHE wants...lol.

 

[Miss_sj]

Oh that is adorable..only a budgie who is completely at ease with his "hoomans" will do this. So you both trained each other really...lol. He showed you that a double tap would bring him over..smart bird!! Sam does the beak tap thing too. Usually when I am typing on the computer she will come up to my finger and tap it and I tap her beak back and she spins in circles (I call it her happy dance) and then comes back to repeat it all again. I can't double tap her over to me though. She comes when SHE wants...lol.

The fact that its specifically TWO taps cracks me up. Not one, not three...its two!