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A question about behavior (with video)

Lori D Pert

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I will admit that I have never had a budgie quite this playful. She has the run of the house simply because she utilizes every playgym that I have provided her. When we go out, I do not put her in her cage..I have a bedroom that is budgie proof with her travel cage in it. I also get told off when I walk her in there because she knows we will be gone for awhile. I have had many tamed and playful budgies through the years but Sam humbles me. She, I think, is smarter than me...lol.
 
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Dorcas George

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I'd keep the scratching for when she stands on her feet and you can be certain to only touch the back of her neck/around her head. The way you do it now, it is too easy to slip and her feet drag you to touch other parts of her body, that's not good..
That’s what I saw too. You intend to scratch her neck but looks like that’s not Sam’s intent. (She’s SO pretty and funny, btw.) Good luck! And I’m editing because I see more posts were added that I didn’t see.
 
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Begone

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I believe that she is happy and playful because she knows she is loved and well taken care of.
You can see 100% trust with her behavior and for that I'm grateful.

Make my day - Treat.your animal with love, respect and always remember who chosed who.
 

Monica

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My, what an odd looking conure you got there!!! :D Or is she a caique???? :roflmao:


She's absolutely adorable! A healthy diet and exercise via flight can help to prevent egg binding. You can also discourage egg laying by making she she doesn't have anything nest like to lay eggs in... which also means that if she finds an area that, to her, is nest like, taking access away from it!
 

Lori D Pert

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My, what an odd looking conure you got there!!! :D Or is she a caique???? :roflmao:


She's absolutely adorable! A healthy diet and exercise via flight can help to prevent egg binding. You can also discourage egg laying by making she she doesn't have anything nest like to lay eggs in... which also means that if she finds an area that, to her, is nest like, taking access away from it!
Awww thanks and she has a very healthy diet and is fully flighted which the little hen I had years ago was not. She came to me clipped and despite letting her wings grow back and encouraging her to fly she never did. This just drives home to me how important flight is!
 

Gribouille

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She came to me clipped and despite letting her wings grow back and encouraging her to fly she never did. This just drives home to me how important flight is!
I could never understand why clipping is so fashionable at so many petshops/vets/breeders in the US. It has never been a question here, all birds have their wings when you get them, and you'd have to clip yourself or at the vet if you really want to, but you'd have to make a choice to do it, it is never done by default nor recommended by vets/shops/breeders.
 

Monica

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I could never understand why clipping is so fashionable at so many petshops/vets/breeders in the US. It has never been a question here, all birds have their wings when you get them, and you'd have to clip yourself or at the vet if you really want to, but you'd have to make a choice to do it, it is never done by default nor recommended by vets/shops/breeders.
Reasons for it.....

"Easier to tame" aka "Can't tame flighted birds"
"Stops aggression"
"Stops biting"
"Stops birds flying to attack"
"Makes them tamer"
"Puts them in their place" aka "Takes them down a notch"
"Keeps birds flying out doors" aka "Makes it safe to take birds outside unrestrained"
"Keeps birds safe from predators in the house"
"Prevents birds flying into walls/windows"

Many of which are based on false ideas, lack of knowledge, poor judgement, etc....
 

Gribouille

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Reasons for it.....

"Easier to tame" aka "Can't tame flighted birds"
"Stops aggression"
"Stops biting"
"Stops birds flying to attack"
"Makes them tamer"
"Puts them in their place" aka "Takes them down a notch"
"Keeps birds flying out doors" aka "Makes it safe to take birds outside unrestrained"
"Keeps birds safe from predators in the house"
"Prevents birds flying into walls/windows"

Many of which are based on false ideas, lack of knowledge, poor judgement, etc....
yes... as you said, all bad reasons. If these are the reasons, then why getting a bird? o_O Try a rat instead :meh:
And the "keeping a bird safe from predator in the house" by removing its ability to escape is really screwed!! :facepalm:
 

Monica

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yes... as you said, all bad reasons. If these are the reasons, then why getting a bird? o_O Try a rat instead :meh:
And the "keeping a bird safe from predator in the house" by removing its ability to escape is really screwed!! :facepalm:
The thought process is... the bird wont be able to fly *OVER* to said predator.... rather than being able to fly away... in the event that it does occur.


All we can do is learn and improve upon our mistakes. When we know better, we do better. I used to clip, because I didn't know better. I used to take clipped birds outside, too. I've been there. Now? All flight! If you train right, I don't see any reason to clip. Heck, I wouldn't even clip an aggressive bird! At best, clipping is only a temporary "correction" to a long term problem. It is not the answer to an issue... but so many people believe it is. Bird bites? Clip. Bird avoids you? Clip. Not too many people will suggest training... it's often about clipping. If training is mentioned, it's usually about forcing the bird to do something which results in biting... and then either ignoring the bird, punishing the bird (I don't know how anyone can be proud when their bird gets scared when they see a water bottle!) or some other horrendous act.

Many believe that you must be alpha/dominating/flock leader... all crap. I don't agree with this kind of training for dogs, either.


This is why I recommend training through positive reinforcement techniques. Teaching the behaviors we want rather than forcing them and potentially ending up with worse behaviors.
 

Ripshod

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A clipped bird isn't easier to tame, it just becomes submissive because it has no choice.
 

Monica

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The correct term is "learned helplessness", not "submissive". This is frequently seen with clipped birds that must remain clipped in order to be tame. The bird is sweet and friendly. When the bird is allowed flight, they suddenly have choice, and the choice is to avoid their owner and bite. Therefore, bird is no longer "friendly". Rather than training the bird correctly, they clip the bird to 'take them down a notch'. It's an endless cycle that sadly works in the humans favor, rather than the birds.

It can also be seen with teaching birds to step up or screaming birds.

 

Begone

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Yes their is one of my favorite videos! ♥
This is part why I always said that a step up is not important. Building trust must come first. And trust will never come if you demand things and put them in a towel because you failed to train them better.
I want my birds to be my friends, they will always have their own will and decide what to do or not.
But with positive reinforcement (and routines) they are very easy to handle.

And about taming and clipped feathers...
I never train my birds in their cage. So when I got new birds, my only option is to let them out to train them/building trust/become friends.
And when they realize that they can choose where they want to be and fly away if they get scared makes them so much easier to tame.

This was Zenith. He lived his first two years in a basement with cats, and no other interactions.
He didn't have water when I pick him up, and I have never before seen a budgie that could drink so much as he did here for the first weeks.
I did realize that he expected it to end every time I fill his bowl up. :(
He was allowed out the day after he arrived here.

I get an emergency call late that evening and they needed somewhere to place a budgie for one or two days. It was almost midnight when we where back, but all the way in the car he was singing and was very happy (not nervous at all) that he got some attention.
I didn't have any plans for a new bird, this was just a rescue. :innocent:

This is Zenith 3 months later. 2 years old, not tame from the beginning, and fully flighted. (as you can see)
 

Ripshod

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The correct term is "learned helplessness", not "submissive".
I'm from Yorkshire and proud of it. I paint the same picture with a different, rather blunt brush. If I was to go to the club and say 'learned helplessness' the (correct) response I'd get is "oooooh! 'ark at im all hoity-toity" :lol:
 
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Lori D Pert

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Strange but I don't consider the word "tame" to mean performing on demand. I never wanted any of my birds to jump on my finger immediately when I offer it, or put a ball in the basket or even run up and down a ladder when I present one. I consider tame to mean they have no fear of us. They fly on our shoulder when we leave the room, they call out to us when they can't see us, they taste our food and preen us. In other words they have chosen to love us.
 

Monica

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I'm from Yorkshire and proud of it. I paint the same picture with a different, rather blunt brush. If I was to go to the club and say 'learned helplessness' the (correct) response I'd get is "oooooh! 'ark at im all hoity-toity" :lol:
The definition of submissive and learned helplessness are quite different...

submissive
  • ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.
learned helplessness
  • Learned helplessness is behavior exhibited by a subject after enduring repeated aversive stimuli beyond their control.

Sure, you could call it being submissive, however, if you really look at the behavior, it's learned helplessness. One behavior is being willing to conform, the other is simply giving up because they have no other choice.

Kind of like seeing a picture of a dog chasing a ball... one person may see a dog that loves to chase balls, the other may see a dog that loves to play fetch. Although to us, this behavior would be the same, to a dog it could be completely different. That is, a dog that loves to chase balls may not know how to fetch them. A dog that knows how to fetch a ball may not chase the ball in order to retrieve the ball and bring it back.

It's little nuances like that that can make a huge difference in the greater scheme of things. :)



Strange but I don't consider the word "tame" to mean performing on demand. I never wanted any of my birds to jump on my finger immediately when I offer it, or put a ball in the basket or even run up and down a ladder when I present one. I consider tame to mean they have no fear of us. They fly on our shoulder when we leave the room, they call out to us when they can't see us, they taste our food and preen us. In other words they have chosen to love us.
It doesn't have to be, but training birds to do various behaviors can be a great way to earn trust and challenge their minds. Dogs can be a great example! You have a dog that's misbehaving? The recommendation is training and exercise! You have a high energy dog? Give them a job! But with birds, what do we do? We clip them.... and then often fail to follow up on good training measures. Why do we clip birds then fail to properly train them when they show behaviors that we don't like? Why do we punish those behaviors rather than trying to replace those behaviors with desired behaviors?

It's baffling...
 

Lori D Pert

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I'm from Yorkshire and proud of it. I paint the same picture with a different, rather blunt brush. If I was to go to the club and say 'learned helplessness' the (correct) response I'd get is "oooooh! 'ark at im all hoity-toity" :lol:
Hahahaha..I remember my father helping me learn my french vocabulary. I grew up in Montreal but in school we learned Parisian french rather than Quebecois french. The word was "alarm clock" and the translation in my book was "reveil de matin". Well my father (who learned french on the streets of Montreal) laughed his butt off and asked if I knew the literal translation? Ummm...no I said. It means "morning waker" said my father. If you use that word you will get the tar beaten out of you in the schooolyard. The word is "l'horloge, tabernacle"...clock ffs!!! So much for hoity toity...
 

Ripshod

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I'm not going to debate this with you @Monica. By dictionary definition you are correct. But we don't live in the pages of a dictionary over here, we say things as we see them - the way of the laymen.
Yes, once educated we can say 'learned helplessness'. But many new members would relate better to the term 'submissive'. And I'm all about teaching the new members, not alienating them by insisting on everyone using the 'correct' terminology.
I'll continue to say it as I see it, and I won't bust anyone's butt for doing the same. I have no time for pedantry.
 
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