Undigested Millet in droppings

[ktemkin]

The vet there asked us not to medicate him until Monday, so the head of exotics can decide if he wants to change his antibiotic before he receives his injection.

He hasn't had another bout of undigested food since the day he had the blockage. I've thrown out the millet that "caused" the initial issue. We're going to take his cage apart and disinfect all of it today.

 

[ktemkin]

It seems like he's doing a bit better now. He's singing again, though not as much as he used to, and he's less tired and cold.

We've got a script for doxy tablets now, which are meant to dissolve and be ingested in water. Apparently they've been clinically proven to have high efficacy in cockatiels.

My fianceé and I bought him a thermal perch to keep him warm at night. Spent a few hours today testing it and it provides a nice gradient of temperature, so he can choose how warm he wants his feet. I was worried, but I think it's safe to use, at least during illness.

I've been spreading his droppings out on a slide recently and the only undigested matter I've seen have been small plant fibres and pieces of seed husks.

 

[Billie Faye]

OK this is a step in the right direction!
Please keep us posted...

 

[ktemkin]

Short update:

His condition hasn't changed very much. He's on the doxycycline now- I was hoping I'd see a lot of improvement in these few days.

The one thing that has changed is the look of his nares. I've attached a photo. Though that looks like mucous, it's dried and powdery. He hasn't been producing any more of it- and I never saw and nasal discharge.

We have a consultation with Dr. Morrissey soon.

I miss the days when I'd bring him with me around the house and he'd try his best to make trouble. Now he's limited to the two rooms where I can provide adequate heat.

I'm scared for him. I've already missed a lot of work for him- now, when I go out I set up a webcam so I can always check and ensure he's okay.

 

[rikkitikki]

Aww man, poor guy. I hope the consult with Dr. Morrissey find a quick cure!

 

[ktemkin]

Still don't know what's wrong.

Things went really badly on Friday. Car broke down with Ada inside a mile from the vet. We had to walk him the last mile. He was in the carrier for like 11 hours with no supportive care.

Now he's much worse. Urine is exclusively yellow. He sleeps almost all day.

His intestines(?) make a gurgling noise, and he often acts like he is going to make a dropping, gurgles, and then doesn't.

I won't have a car to transport him until later in the week. I'm failing him.

Anyone have any ideas that might help him? I need and love this baby. I need him to be happy again.

(posted from my mobile)

 

[Birdiemarie]

Oh Kyle, I'm so sorry to hear Ada isn't doing well. I can only imagine how frustrated you are.

 

[ktemkin]

Does anyone know if Doxycycline can cause the yellow urine? I know it has a tendency to register false positives on renal failure tests in humans.

Ada now refuses to drink water from his dish. Though he has had SQ doxy, he still suspects we're putting doxy in his water. We have to give him water in another cup so he doesn't dehydrate himself.

 

[ktemkin]

Update:

We now think we have a pretty good idea what's been causing this, and how to fix it.

It seems like he initially had a bacterial infection, which the doxy is/was taking care of- hence why he was getting so much better last Friday.

Last week, we added a small supplement of a local brand of Brewer's Yeast. Upon research, we discovered that the brewer's yeast was cultivated on sugar beets grown in a zinc-rich environment. He was getting better, and we inadvertently poisoned him!

He's on the medication (chelating agent) for heavy metal poisoning, and he's improved dramatically. Hopefully he'll be out of the hospital tonight!

 

[Kathie]

Oh my gosh! I have been following this thread and have been very worried. Was this Brewer's Yeast something the vet prescribed?

This is very good information - both for everyone to know as well as that you have found the answer!! Glad things are looking up.

Perhaps you should put up a post about why not to ever use Brewer's Yeast. Keeping fingers crossed!!!

 

[Billie Faye]

Update:

We now think we have a pretty good idea what's been causing this, and how to fix it.

It seems like he initially had a bacterial infection, which is/was doxy taking care of- hence why he was getting so much better last Friday.

Last week, we added a small supplement of a local brand of Brewer's Yeast. Upon research, we discovered that the brewer's yeast was cultivated on sugar beets grown in a zinc-rich environment. He was getting better, and we inadvertently poisoned him!

He's on the medication (chelating agent) for heavy metal poisoning, and he's improved dramatically. Hopefully he'll be out of the hospital tonight!

Could you please tell me where you found this info and what brand of Brewer's Yeast you were using? I'm really trying to wrap my brain around this...because that yeast would have to be LOADED Zinc to give him enough to poison him....I am Zinc intolerance myself....

 

[ktemkin]

Sorry in advance if this is overly scientific, but I believe the subject matter deserves thorough research, and I am an engineer.

----

The brand was Lewis Labs. From information on the web [1], they claim their brewer's yeast contains 20% DV (daily value) per 2tbsp for a human adult.

The DV for a human adult is recommended at 15mg [2]. Multiply by .2, and you have an estimated 3mg of zinc per two tablespoons.

This means there's roughly .5mg of zinc per teaspoon., or 1.5mg per tablespoon.

Extrapolating from Ada's current weight of 65 grams, that means that, were he to eat a tablespoon, he'd be taking in 7.69mg/kg. (Not to imply that he was ingesting that much, as it was sprinkled over his food.)

There isn't a commonly agreed figure for the LD50 [3] of zinc in cockatiels, but it's argued to be somewhere between 5mg/kg and 20mg/kg, from what I've seen.

Sources:

[1] Lewis Labs Brewer's Yeast -- 32 oz - Vitacost
[2] http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/zinc.asp
[3] http://www.jstor.org/pss/30133187


Lewis labs website:
Lewis Laboratories International, Ltd. Brewer's Yeast

The relevant section of their website (which does not list nutrition):

Unlike ordinary brewer's yeast, which is grown on grain and hops liquor, Lewis Labs' 100% Pure Premium Imported Brewer's Yeast is a primary yeast grown on sugar beets. Derived from the sugar beets is a rich spectrum of nutrients. Sugar beets are known to absorb so much out of the soil—minerals, metals, trace elements, etc. that they can only be grown in one field for two years without depleting the soil.

Sugar beets absorb nutrients from the soil faster than almost any other crop and, as a result, this yeast is exceptionally rich in Selenium, Chromium, Potassium, Magnesium, Sodium, Copper, Manganese, Iron, Zinc and other factors natural to yeast

--

I am absolutely kicking myself for not doing more research on this brewer's yeast. I made the critical, and invalid, assumption that just because a product as organic, it had not had its chemical properties altered in the growing process.

I do not think that it is fair to say brewer's yeast isn't healthy for birds- only fair to say that one should be very, very careful as to the brand they choose, and confirm that the yeast has been induced to pick up any zinc.

If someone would like to check my math and perhaps make a post on Healthy Highway warning of this possible danger, I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll make the post myself once the math is verified.

---

He did make a drastic improvement on the chelating agents- and exactly in the time-frame the vet predicted if the problem was heavy metal. Unfortunately, we cannot verify this diagnosis, as we just couldn't draw enough blood to do both a lead/zinc screen and a CBC.

I have removed all metal toys from his cage just to be sure. I am going to have the cage tested for lead/zinc via a GCMS as soon as I can.

 

[atvchick95]

Glad to hear he is doing much better

Now i gotta go see what brand my Brewers yeast is, and check it, I've been using it on my adults and My hand fed babies!

 

[Billie Faye]

Sorry in advance if this is overly scientific, but I believe the subject matter deserves thorough research, and I am an engineer.

----

The brand was Lewis Labs. From information on the web [1], they claim their brewer's yeast contains 20% DV (daily value) per 2tbsp for a human adult.

The DV for a human adult is recommended at 15mg [2]. Multiply by .2, and you have an estimated 3mg of zinc per two tablespoons.

This means there's roughly .5mg of zinc per teaspoon., or 1.5mg per tablespoon.

Extrapolating from Ada's current weight of 65 grams, that means that, were he to eat a tablespoon, he'd be taking in 7.69mg/kg. (Not to imply that he was ingesting that much, as it was sprinkled over his food.)

There isn't a commonly agreed figure for the LD50 [3] of zinc in cockatiels, but it's argued to be somewhere between 5mg/kg and 20mg/kg, from what I've seen.

Sources:

[1] Lewis Labs Brewer's Yeast -- 32 oz - Vitacost
[2] Zinc
[3] JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Lewis labs website:
Lewis Laboratories International, Ltd. Brewer's Yeast

The relevant section of their website (which does not list nutrition):



--

I am absolutely kicking myself for not doing more research on this brewer's yeast. I made the critical, and invalid, assumption that just because a product as organic, it had not had its chemical properties altered in the growing process.

I do not think that it is fair to say brewer's yeast isn't healthy for birds- only fair to say that one should be very, very careful as to the brand they choose, and confirm that the yeast has been induced to pick up any zinc.

If someone would like to check my math and perhaps make a post on Healthy Highway warning of this possible danger, I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll make the post myself once the math is verified.

---

He did make a drastic improvement on the chelating agents- and exactly in the time-frame the vet predicted if the problem was heavy metal. Unfortunately, we cannot verify this diagnosis, as we just couldn't draw enough blood to do both a lead/zinc screen and a CBC.

I have removed all metal toys from his cage just to be sure. I am going to have the cage tested for lead/zinc via a GCMS as soon as I can.

This is what was throwing me...most of the Brewer's yeast I have seen is done with grains....not sugar beets...
I still think there are other sources to the zinc intake ....maybe combined with your BY could do this.....
AND thank you for explaining further!!!
We all need to check out what we give our birds to the best of our abilities...
Keeping my prayers coming!

 

[Anne & Gang]

I buy my brewer's yeast from the local health food store and it has NO ADDITIVES.

 

[Billie Faye]

Anne, I don't think the issue is the additives BUT what the yeast was "grown/made on".... "BEETS" that were grown in high zinc soil which in turn, the beets "leached" out of the soil...

 

[Kathie]

How is Ada doing?

 

[ktemkin]

Much better! Glad to report he's almost 100% back to normal. Just have to see what happens when his meds run out.

I am so happy; I was so scared.

(posted from my mobile)

 

[srtiels]

I still think there are other sources to the zinc intake
--------------------------------
Dietary zinc is TOTALLY different than zinc from metals. Dietary zinc is critical for growth, reproduction and normal longevity because of its involvement with tissue repair and wound healing. it helps with the mobilization of vitamin A from the liver.

Phytates from plant souces such grains and buckwheat tend to bind zinc in the body, and the bodies zinc requirements are increased when there is added calcium in the diet.

Wheras zinc sources from metal can severly impair or damage the bodies systems such as nerves and digestive, and they inhibit enzyme active and protein formation, and block calcium absorption.

 

[ktemkin]

There is still a possibility this isn't zinc poisoning; it could as easily have been another heavy metal, or not heavy metals at all. We were not able to run a lead-zinc test; we identified that as the probable cause due to his immediate positive reaction to the chelating agent.

He is going back to the vet shortly after being taken off the chelating agent; we will take blood again, and probably run the lead-zinc so we can ensure he's not going to degrade as soon as he's off the penicillamine.

---

We've since removed all metal from his cage, except for his heated perch, which has a stainless steel endpiece, as pictured at that link. He's never out unsupervised, and doesn't chew metal outside his cage.

His cage was (from the manufacturer) painted white (which could indicate zinc/lead), but the paint isn't cracked or flaking anywhere, and he doesn't really chew the bars.

His Cage

I would really like to get a nicer cage, but am not crazy about the idea of buying a used one, and am still financially hurting from the more-than-a-thousand I put down on vet bills and related expenses. I even had to get a new car, when my old one died about a mile from Cornell.

If you think there's a serious concern from his cage bars, I will make arrangements to get him another cage. If so, could you guys provide recommendations for a nice, safe, preferably inexpensive cage with Cockatiel-size bar spacing? Roomy would be nice, too- Ada deserves the best he can get.