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Undigested Millet in droppings

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ktemkin

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Last week, I found a single piece of seemingly unhulled, undigested millet seed in my 'tiel Ada's stool. Given the fact that he had been wet earlier and walking around on a tray covered in millet seeds, I guessed that it was probably stuck to his feathers, and not actually from the stool. As subsequent droppings were normal, I warily disregarded the instance.

Today, however, he passed another single piece of unhulled millet- and this time it was unquestionably found in the dropping. He's been otherwise healthy.

Here's the worst part: I called the Cornell animal hospital- the only local vet with a real lab- and they can't get him in until the 21st. I called my local avian vet's office (and the only avian vet I've been able to find in the area) only to find out that she is 'no longer practicing.'

When I spoke to Cornell's emergency department, they indicated that they were a stopgap measure to get birds stable until an actual vet's appointment can be made, and thus wouldn't be of much help unless his condition worsened.

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I really need help and advice on what I should do.

I'm absolutely beside myself worrying that this could be something very serious, like PDD. I've tried researching the symptom and generically it's been attributed to either PDD or AGY, though in other cases everything from poor state of intestinal flora to hormonal imbalance.

If someone knowledgeable on this subject could comment on the following, it'd be very helpful:

Millet seeds are surrounded by a thin, (generally indigestible?) husk which is removed by most hookbills before the 'meat' of the seed can be digested. Millet was being used as positive reinforcement during clicker training: after a few seconds of eating, it was removed until Ada was to be rewarded again.

Is it likely that in his frenzy to get as much millet as possible in the limited timespan, he swallowed the occasional seed without hulling? If so, would it be a possible (likely?) explanation for the appearance of very slight quantities of undigested, unhulled millet in his stool?
 

Kathie

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Don't go crazy. It could just be bacteria or something. What is worse is that most vets will immediately suggest that it is PDD. Are you sure that the dropping didn't fall into a millet hull? They are very light and can easily "blow" into the dropping. Still, even if it was eliminated, that does not necessarily mean PDD. Is Ada acting okay? No loss of weight? No regurgitation? Loss of balance?
 

JLcribber

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A feeding frenzy on it may cause that to happen. Especially if you say it is a very minute amount ( as in 1 or 2 single seeds).

If it was indeed a real sickness I would think there would be more of it in the stool given how much she would have eaten in this frenzy. I am no vet and this is just an observation from your post. She needs to see an avian vet and have some tests done to get a real diagnosis.
 

Magic

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i hope some one comes along that can help but i would say that he probly was in a frenzy to get as much as he could in the training with the clicker reason i say this is becouse my nanday done the same thing with her millet when we gave it as a treat after clicker training and she tryed to eat really fast so we changed her treat now to a single seed or peice of apple i never seen any seeds in the poop but i did keep a watch on her and changed the treats so she wasnt trying to inhale them i would keep a really close eye on your bird til some one comes along to better help you or you get to a vet i hope everythings going to be allright with your fid
 

Tielygirl

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I cannot be of much help here but I wanted to add that aside from it possibly being blown in, if the seed is still in its hull the bird couldn't have digested it anyway. If he had swallowed it whole , they, like us, cannot digest the outer shell of most seeds, hence why they hull their seeds.

Do you offer him millet in the area where you found the poop with the seed in it?

I would continue to monitor him and be sure he's eating and drinking too. You could feed him some plain non-fat yogurt to help add probiotics.. It will aid in digestion.
 

ktemkin

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Are you sure that the dropping didn't fall into a millet hull? They are very light and can easily "blow" into the dropping.
This was a whole millet seed, hull and meat, and it happened away from the cage. I'm sure it came directly from Ada.

Is Ada acting okay? No loss of weight? No regurgitation? Loss of balance?
Behavior is normal- no regurgitation or disorientation. He eats a lot- but he always has. He vocalized normally today.

I track his weight daily with a gram scale on an empty crop. It's usually about 72-73. Weight today/yesterday was in the normal range; it was 75g this morning.

Tielygirl said:
You could feed him some plain non-fat yogurt to help add probiotics.. It will aid in digestion.
I'm going to go out tomorrow and try and get some brewer's yeast- I understand that's a recommended probiotic for birds. Yogurt seems a good idea as well, as it contains good proteins for birds.

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Here's a summary of some abnormalities found in a blood test two or three weeks ago, in case those help anyone:

The results of the complete blood count reveaed slight changes in the differential white blood cell count (lower number of heterophils at 27%; high number of lymphocytes at 63% and monocytes at 6%). The chemistry panel results revealed low normal total protein (2.2 mg/dL) and high normal bile acids (80 mcmol/L).
 
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Kathie

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Kyle, I have a friend who has a grey. He was eliminating all kinds of undigested food. Turns out it was merely a bacterial infection in his intestines. So, undigested food does not mean a death sentence. And, I probably shouldn't say this, but make sure that, should they do a test for ABV, you find out what lab they send it to. PM me. There is one lab in particular that somehow comes up with 99% positive ABV results, whereas the same testing sent to other labs comes back negative.
 

crzybrdldy

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A picture is worth a thousand words.

If it is just here and there I don't believe you should panic. Usually if you have a bird showing signs of PDD you will find more than one hull of millet and your bird would be eating like crazy all the while losing body weight.

Do you weigh your bird every morning after the first poo of the day? If you don't have a gram scale you can take your index finger and rub it over your birds keel bone, there should be the feeling of the keel with breast meat on either side without having to press to hard to feel it, if you have a keel bone that is very prominent then you have an underweight bird, if you feel prominent breast meat and no keel you have a bird that is eating way to good. This should work in the short term until you can see a BCAV.

Hope it helps!
 

ktemkin

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I will try get a picture of the abberant dropping if it occurs again. As for Ada:




I do weigh daily with a gram scale. He is slightly underweight at 73, but not losing weight.

(posted from my mobile)
 

jmfleish

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I think you're worrying over nothing. A single undigested seed? If it were many, then I'd say worry but one seed?

PDD is generally the first thing people think of when you see undigested seed in the fecal droppings, but you have to see a lot of it. This will also come with a significant loss of weight and a ravenous bird.

I think you've got your bases covered by taking your bird in when you can and until then, just watch him to see if you see any other changes, but until then, you are just going to run yourself into a tizzy worrying about anything else.
 

srtiels

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I'm going to go out tomorrow and try and get some brewer's yeast- I understand that's a recommended probiotic for birds. Yogurt seems a good idea as well, as it contains good proteins for birds.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Brewers yeast is not a probiotic, and yogurt is not for proteins. The yogurt is for the lactobacillius (sp) to help balance the intestinal flora in the GI tract. If there is an imbalance this could cause the passing of undigested foods.

 

ktemkin

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I seem to have had that backwards- it's brewer's yeast which contains amino acids (the building blocks for protein) and yogurt which contains the probiotic bacterium. I know you're very experienced with natural 'remedies' for cockatiels- anything else you'd recommend?
 
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srtiels

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I'd go with the Probiotics at first. it will take a day or two to see results.

And some Brewers Yeast lightly sprinkled on any foods he will eat.
 

birdlvr466

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Thank you Susanne. GSE has been used and recommended by many reputable members including myself. I guess it will be up to the OP to decide what is best in his situation.
 

srtiels

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GSE has been used and recommended by many reputable members including myself.
------------------------------------------

The thing of it is many people read the info and then parrot this to others. I have actual necropys pix's done on the damage these product can do to the moucus membranes of the digestive tract. Few also don't go back far enough in research where it is stated for 4 legged animals. Birds are 2 legged...and their immune and intestinal tract is more sensitive. As to the Giardia, I was on the Holistic Bird list when the topic of GSE was discussed, and at the same time I used it with some devatating results which my necropsy pix's are from. If there is a problem with giardia it should be treated with the proper medications...and most times secondary bacterial infections result from the primary cause of giardia, and sfter a giardia treatment antifungals and probiotics are needed to balance out the intestinal flora.

At the time I had several hundred tiels...thus it was a large enough amount of birds to find out if a product was truly safe or if some birds had bad or fatal side effects.
 

jmfleish

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I agree wholeheartedly with Susanne and won't even have the stuff in my house much less let it come in contact with anything my birds come in contact with. It isn't a natural product and people don't seem to realize that. They add chemicals to it, but that's not the crux of the argument. It's basically an antibiotic and kills all gut bacteria, good and bad.
 

ktemkin

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I would add that medication (even a natural remedy) generally shouldn't be performed without a diagnosis. Remedies like GSE and apple cider vinegar serve as alternative-medicine antimicrobial agents, and, efficacy debate aside, have a definite effect on a bird's homeostasis.

I don't mean to step into an area which is already marked by contest, but in this circumstance I do agree with Susanne- I think it would be better not to experimentally try a new antimicrobial without evidence of the presence of pathogens.

--

More importantly:

I've removed all spray millet from Ada's cage and don't plan on offering it as a treat in the near future. I know half the fun of millet is hulling it and pulling it off the spray, but I've been considering buying some hulled millet to try and determine if the problem is merely that, in a 'feeding frenzy', Ada ingests un-hulled seeds.

Any ideas/opinions?
 
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