• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

UC Davis recommends not neutering large male dogs

Status
Not open for further replies.

Safira

Strolling the yard
Joined
3/13/13
Messages
95
Location
Maryland
When I took my puppy to the vet, he recommended that I wait until Forest was a year old to Neuter, or even older if I could. Or not do it at all. When I asked if that was because he was male himself, he said no and pointed me to this study.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Part of me can see how it could harm a young male dog (large breed) and part of me wonders if they did a big enough study. There's been a LOT of large male dogs neutered as puppies, and they only studied one breed and 759 of them.

Still, have a looksie and tell me what you think? I've never heard ANY vet say to hold off on getting them fixed. The earlier the better is usually the rule of thumb I've been told. So this is a complete 180.

Forest is getting snipped as soon as he's old enough. I have an intact female and I will -not- be having puppies.

Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information

more reading:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937
 
Last edited:

artgeek09

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Shutterbugs' Best
Joined
4/21/11
Messages
1,467
Location
Montgomery, AL
Real Name
Jessica
On the Mastiff forums that I've been a part of, almost all of them share the very strong opinion that especially large breed males should not be neutered until they're fully matured. I haven't really looks too close into it to be honest, but those who hold the opinion hold it fiercely. Especially for giant breeds I've read, there's a higher occurrence of stunted growth and hip dysplasia when the dog is neutered before they've matured.
 

Safira

Strolling the yard
Joined
3/13/13
Messages
95
Location
Maryland
It makes sense, and I just looked at the charts on the study. It's amazing how many of dogs had HD linked to early neutering. My vet had a very strong opinion on it himself.
 

Tangle Elf

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
12/10/11
Messages
2,938
Location
NJ
Real Name
Jen
I think there's plenty of evidence to support late neutering for large breed dogs. However, I would switch vets if I was at a vet that supported not neutering large breed dogs at all based on one study of one breed in one location. I also find some of their research methods questionable. One is that some statistics aren't reported because the incidence is too low to report. All data should be reported. Also, date for males and females is separate. The graph makes it look like MCT is higher in late neutered dogs. Only one of the three dogs reported was male. It's likely that late neutering reduces the risk of all diseases in males as this is the only one that is higher than intact dogs. All other diseases reported, late neutered dogs were either equal to intact dogs or had lower rates of disease.

Irving has HD. I got him and had him neutered at 18 months, which is considered late in the study referenced. He was diagnosed with HD a few months later. He would have developed it either way. It's hard to say if it would have been worse if he'd been neutered early.
 

Ribbit21

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Joined
6/20/11
Messages
2,879
Location
Minooka, IL
Real Name
Keri
It's a common topic among large and giant breed dog forums. People have all sorts of different reasons for doing it. Personally, I'm not a big fan of some of the studies that were done. Better studies need to be done and with more breeds. There are so many factors that lead to joint problems I dogs. I think the studies just add fuel to the fire for people looking for reasons not to neuter their dogs.

Although, I think people tend to lump all large breed dogs into one category. A Great Dane matures at a much slower rate than a Golden Retriever. My Dane wasn't done growing until he was 2yrs old. I was told by all the forums not to neuter him till he was over a year old. He was neutered at 7 months. At 6 months old he was capable of jumping our fence and I didn't want to risk it. His growth was never stunted. His hips were recently checked and look great. So many growth and hip problems relating to giant breed dogs have so much more to due with their growth as a puppy. My mastiff has terrible hips. Several times a year she will have a hip joint pop out and it's horrible. According to her records, she was spayed late. She is also a puppy mill dog and I know her previous owners had no idea what to feed a giant breed puppy.
 

greymatron

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
11/6/11
Messages
3,359
Location
VA
Real Name
Nicole
I'm aware of this..and I'm kind of on the fence about it..with a large breed, as in large I mean giant, I could see, and if there was an inkling it would help him in the long run, then I may decide to wait..Maybe. But I'd have to research it more than I have.
However I don't regret neutering my male at 6 months, however he is only 35pounds..but part of me wonders if he would have developed a little better if we waited even a couple of months.
I guess I feel as if there isn't enough information one way or the other, but if I were to get a giant breed at any point, I honestly would wait until 8 months or a year at least, at the absolute latest I'd wait until they were 2 years of age.
 

Tangle Elf

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
12/10/11
Messages
2,938
Location
NJ
Real Name
Jen
I just read about Forest. Given his allergy, an accidental breeding would be even worse than usual. It may or may not be genetic, but who wants to take the chance. The study seems to me to indicate that large male dogs (golden retrievers anyway) benefit from late neutering. I think 18-24 months might be better than 12, they're more developed at that point. The study completely fails to consider the behavioral aspects of neutering. An unaltered male has a biological imperative to breed. We can't just explain to them why they can't just mount any female in heat. They're never going to understand. They're just going to always have this unfulfilled need. If he was my dog, I would neuter him between 18-24 months based on what I just wrote.
 

sonja

Jogging around the block
Joined
9/21/12
Messages
614
As Jen mentioned, I'd never listen to just one study on one breed, and there are many other factors to consider, too. The vast majority of hit-by-car dogs are unneutered males because of their desire to run and find females in heat. The number one predictor of serious and fatal dog bites is reproductive status ie. unneutered males have the highest incidence of serious & fatal dog bites - especially concerning with a large breed dog that can do some damage with a bite. And, of course, the overpopulation issue. A male dog that gets out accidentally, searching for a female, can reproduce in a short period of time, and then that's another litter of unwanted dogs adding to the insane dog overpopulation in this country.

I would like to see some research throwing in joint supplements as another element in development.

As a dog rescuer, focused on pit bulls, I will spay and neuter anything I can get my hands on! If I could neuter them twice, I would!
 

Ankou

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Shutterbugs' Best
Joined
7/9/11
Messages
2,663
Location
Alaska
Real Name
Sondra
I had a long discussion with this very topic with my vet after Pete, my rottweiler mix, was diagnosed with osteosarcoma (a horrible bone cancer that is more common in dogs that were neutered young.) I also looked at quite a few studies.

Bear and Pete were both neutered when I adopted them, they were 8-10 weeks old (it was done more like spaying is.) The rescue I got them from simply will not adopt out dogs that have not been desexed due to how unbelievably irresponsible people are in my area. I don't blame them but will never get a dog that was neutered that young again, because frankly (and my vet agreed) that is too young and does post a risk.


However there is no evidence that it stunted their growth or caused any of their health issues. Pete reached 130 lbs and got the characteristic barrel chest rotties are known for. Bear has a more athletic build, tall and narrow, and weighs 110 lbs.
She also feels a lot of the problems people try to associate with neutering before 12 months are most likely related to poor breeding practices, the severe amount of inbreeding that has been practiced for the sake of "purebred" dogs, rather than the age at which they were neutered. My vet and I both think the most likely cause of their health issues, besides that rottweilers and labs have both been subjected to a lot of "bad breeding," is that their father could also be their half-brother.

My other mutt Shadow, despite being neutered at 6 months, has had no severe issues that can be traced to any study claiming early neutering can be the cause. (At least I haven't seen a study tie FCE into neutering.) He is a sled dog/Belgian shepherd mix... we think. We do know he came from a sled dog kennel.
Sled dogs are a mix of any medium-to-large breed, mainly bred for working drive and stamina. Due to having no "pure bred" requirement to meet, no need for papers that say the dog is more valuable, they are a mix many breeds and are generally very healthy dogs.


One thing I could not tell from that study was, were they comparing the European dogs left intact to American dogs that had been neutered? The lines they are bred from are bound to have some major differences and be separated by generations. Just google "English Labradors" and "American Labradors" and you will see some pretty striking differences in build and facial structure. Have the American animals been subjected to more milling, inbreeding, and other irresponsible practices to meet the demand of the "pet industry" than dogs in other countries? It seems that way to me but I don't honestly know.

Now, forgive me if I'm incorrect, it's been a couple of years since the talk and my own research, but I found there was a higher rate of death in intact male dogs than neutered ones. Not only due to the increased risk of certain other cancers but by being victims of their own "wanderlust." Escaping and being hit by cars, attacked by other dogs, or in my area being shot due to ending up on the wrong person's property. They are also at increased risk of being abandoned or euthanized due to "aggression issues."
I probably should site these studies but I don't want to track them all down because of sheer laze. Of course like all studies they could very likely be biased or propaganda to persuade people to neuter, but I do try to rule that sort of thing out when I look into these things and try to find legitimate information.

My vet's stance on the issue was that 6 to 8 months is the common range for neutering. Neutering before that is "early" and poses a risk, and neutering later than that poses different risks and is largely unnecessary. She says she doesn't personally see a higher incidence of disease in neutered dogs.

Sorry for the long post.
Like I said, I looked into this a lot myself while trying to come to terms with Petie's cancer. I wanted to know a "why." Why! Why was my Sweetie-Pete condemned to die of this at five years old? :(
There is no single answer.
 

Bailey

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
7/14/12
Messages
1,577
Location
Texas
Real Name
Bailey
They got all their information from a single clinic?? That's bad research. Also, to pick a dog that commonly has a bunch of genetic conditions isn't exactly showing a connection between neutering and those conditions.

Correlation? Yes, but there are many many correlation that don't mean anything at all. This study needs to more widespread. Perhaps starting by collecting data about Goldens from clinics across the country..and then following that up with other large breeds as well.
 

JaJerzak

Meeting neighbors
Avenue Veteran
Joined
3/4/13
Messages
68
Location
PA
Real Name
Jackie
I personally waited to get my male lab fixed till he was full grown. However, I do not think that is a good option for everyone. Intact males develop behavioral problems (like wandering and spraying) and someone who hasnt had much experience in dogs can have a bad experience with owning an intact male. Plus there are too many unwanted dogs, and we don't need to add to the problem by "accidents". Leave breeding to the people who know what they are doing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top