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To clip or not to clip?

sunnysmom

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Okay, I was a little too optimistic when I posted last week that Elvis seems to have stopped biting. He hasn't. And I really don't understand why. For instance, the fiancé didn't get home last night until 8:30. I had Elvis out and Elvis immediately flew to the fiancé. Gave him kisses, etc. and was so excited to see him. Everything was fine- no bites. 15 minutes later Howie sits down to eat his reheated dinner. Elvis must of course inspect what he's doing. Then bites his hand. At least this time, he didn't draw blood.

I think you all know how I hate the thought of wing clipping. And I know I can do a light clip. But I am doubting that it's going to stop the biting, as Elvis will happily be sitting with Howie and then bite him. And it's very difficult to keep Elvis away from Howie when he's out of the cage because he wants to hang out with Howie. Although I do realize that clipping would prevent the flying attacks, which are the scariest.

So, do I clip? Or do I simply not let Elvis out when Howie is home? It's going to be an adjustment for Elvis and will be less out of the cage time for him. But he could still fly when he was home just with me. And he adores Howie. So I think he's gong to be upset not getting to interact with him if he's kept in his cage. But I am wondering if until we get this biting thing under control if that's the thing to do. And Elvis is 100% fine with me. I can do anything to him and doesn't bite. Actually, yesterday before Howie got home, I accidentally bumped Elvis's tail, he opened his mouth as if to nip, looked at me, and immediately began giving me kisses. Like he was sorry for even thinking about biting me.

So, opinions please. Is it better to get a light clip or keep him in his cage when Howie is home (or at least downstairs). I could still let Elvis out when Howie is upstairs. And please feel free to give any other suggestions/insight.
 

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I don't think keeping him in his cage when Howie is home will solve the issue. I think it may just create more issues, like screaming and/or plucking.

I think Elvis may be testing Howie. He gets you and knows not to bite you. So what is Howie's reaction when he gets bit? Does he yell, swear or somehow create interesting drama? Elvis may like that. Or it could be that when Howie sits down to eat, he stops paying as much attention to Elvis and Elvis reminds him he is there with a bite.

When I first got Quack she seemed to be biting me hard for no reason. But that scenario - sitting on my lap and suddenly biting my hand - happened. I think it was the lack of attention. I also wondered if she had an aversion to hands and that maybe she had been abused in the past.

Is Howie willing to work on this? Read up on parrot behaviour and biting issues? Concentrate more on reading bird body language and trying to prevent the bite before it happens? Separating them may just make Elvis more frustrated and vent another way. But you might remove Elvis from Howie (if you can safely) while Howie is preoccupied doing something else like eating.
 

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Great post @DQTimnehs !
Or it could be that when Howie sits down to eat, he stops paying as much attention to Elvis and Elvis reminds him he is there with a bite.
That’s what crossed my mind too, Fëanor does that sometimes, and Henkie screams in my ear once in a blue moon for the same reason. Could that be the case?
I hope you find the cause of hus behavior soon So you can work on it:hug8:
 

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I didn't see your first post but I would guess that there is something else going on. I think you need to figure out why Elvis seems to be biting Howie. Like you said, clipping Elvis' wings probably won't solve the biting problem. What you need to do is watch the whole thing and try to back step it and see why Elvis is biting...look at the behavior just before the bite and analyze that, it might give you a clue. Does it happen when Elvis wants attention from Howie and Howie is busy doing something else? Maybe Elvis is trying to get Howie's attention. Maybe, if that's the issue, it would be prudent just to put Elvis in his cage when Howie can't give him undivided attention and that could stop the biting.
 

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All I can say is that it worked for Dante, I only did it once or twice, but that's all it really took for him to calm down. I know a lot of people are against this idea, but if its getting to this point, where Elvis is hurting other people i think you should.
Mini Edit: I keep Dante so he can fly around the house, and I only have a cage when we take trips to the vet. How long do you keep Elvis in his cage, and I wouldn't really recommend clipping if you keep him in a cage often, that might make matters worse. So forget what I said before I guess.
 
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DQTimnehs

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Clipping isn't going to stop him biting when he's already with Howie. I do agree that if he is dive bombing it can slow him down and take his confidence down a notch.
 

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I don't think keeping him in his cage when Howie is home will solve the issue. I think it may just create more issues, like screaming and/or plucking.

I think Elvis may be testing Howie. He gets you and knows not to bite you. So what is Howie's reaction when he gets bit? Does he yell, swear or somehow create interesting drama? Elvis may like that. Or it could be that when Howie sits down to eat, he stops paying as much attention to Elvis and Elvis reminds him he is there with a bite.

When I first got Quack she seemed to be biting me hard for no reason. But that scenario - sitting on my lap and suddenly biting my hand - happened. I think it was the lack of attention. I also wondered if she had an aversion to hands and that maybe she had been abused in the past.

Is Howie willing to work on this? Read up on parrot behaviour and biting issues? Concentrate more on reading bird body language and trying to prevent the bite before it happens? Separating them may just make Elvis more frustrated and vent another way. But you might remove Elvis from Howie (if you can safely) while Howie is preoccupied doing something else like eating.

I am not sure what started the biting. I think perhaps hormones and perhaps he saw it as a game. Howie would lay on the couch with a blanket covering him and Elvis for some reason would start digging for his fingers. We of course didn't encourage this but we didn't think to take the blanket away. Then it became biting. (We've removed the blanket.) Around the same time, he would also try to bite his toes. Howie started wearing slippers so that cut back on the feet attacks but not entirely. Then he started the fly by attacks- mainly feet and hands. Recently, he started semi-attacking his face, which of course, when I saw that, scared me.

Howie does not always handle the bites well. And it's something that I had lectured him on from the get go. He would yell and make a fuss which I tried to explain to him was just contributing to the problem. I think he gets that now but still doesn't always not react. I bought Howie a Barbara H. book, which he hasn't read. And I did get him to go to a Parrot Class taught by one of the trainers at the Aviary. We spoke with her also afterwards. Although it was Howie's take on the situation, not mine. Our opinions differ somewhat. She was pretty adamant that we need to clip.

I've now told Howie that when Elvis is out, he can't walk post his cage. That will at least eliminate the close range face attacks. And the face attacks- which don't happen often- do scare me. For both of their sakes. I don't want either of them to get hurt. And your natural reaction when something flies at your face is to protect your face. And Elvis will bite whether I'm home or not. So it really has nothing to do with me. Maybe it is just an attention/game thing. Because Elvis likes Howie. It's not aggression protecting your mate thing.

How did you get Quack to stop?
 
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sunnysmom

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I didn't see your first post but I would guess that there is something else going on. I think you need to figure out why Elvis seems to be biting Howie. Like you said, clipping Elvis' wings probably won't solve the biting problem. What you need to do is watch the whole thing and try to back step it and see why Elvis is biting...look at the behavior just before the bite and analyze that, it might give you a clue. Does it happen when Elvis wants attention from Howie and Howie is busy doing something else? Maybe Elvis is trying to get Howie's attention. Maybe, if that's the issue, it would be prudent just to put Elvis in his cage when Howie can't give him undivided attention and that could stop the biting.
It may just be an attention thing that somehow also turned into a game. Howie has a tendency to get absorbed in things - messages on his phone, fb, etc and become kind of oblivious to what's going on around him. Maybe we do make the rule that unless Howie is giving Elvis undivided attention, he can't be out- at least for now.

The situation is actually completely stressing me out. I feel like I'm screwing up with Elvis and making Howie completely unhappy. I don't want it to get to the point where Howie wants nothing to do with Elvis. I keep hoping that maybe it is just hormones but I don't know.
 

sunnysmom

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Clipping isn't going to stop him biting when he's already with Howie. I do agree that if he is dive bombing it can slow him down and take his confidence down a notch.
I keep going back and forth on it. I've already told Howie that he's going to have to go with Elvis to get his wings clipped if we do it because I don't think I can. Of course, Howie said he doesn't know if he can watch it either. But I'm a big believer, as much as I do trust my vet, that someone needs to be in the room for all appointments.
 

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We had the problem with both Fozzie and Kishka flying at me to attack my head and face and it was getting very scary. It started with Kishka and it's the scariest thing I've ever been through. We had a lot of discussions about it with our vet. He suggested we house them together so they learned that they were birds. We did that and it did not help. I'm convinced our problems are hormonal in nature. Fozzie was rehomed because he was doing this in his old home and they couldn't take it anymore and when we took him in, Kishka wasn't doing it as badly and we had a good year with Fozzie before he got totally out of control. I finally decided to let the vet trim Kishka when we took him in to make sure that he was physically ok because I thought he was sick but he was just being a broody "teenager". This was right around the age of five. They started on one wing and I thought I was going to lose it. When they went to the other wing, he had several blood feathers coming in, so they couldn't really clip him well on that wing and when we got home, it didn't matter because Kishka would jump to get me and darn it, those light and fluffy Cockatoos can jump! His flights eventually grew back in and I gave up and just tried to be careful about handling them...only taking them out one at a time, really watching their body language, definitely only doing it when Jon wasn't around because Kishie seems to have chosen Jon as his mate. About a six months ago, I had them both out again and they were a disaster and I just clipped them both...I was done with it! I didn't feel bad at all because their behavior was so bad and the clipping helped a little bit. I could have them both out as long as Jon wasn't around but it lasted about a day! The thing is, they are so sweet behind bars. I can pet them and talk to them and they are just the sweetest but let them out and they are the devil incarnate! I keep telling myself that they will mellow with time. My male Leo from the pair we have who is in his mid to late teens is a sweet heart! And Reggie Lou who is 17 grew out of his craziness around the age of 12. These two are deviants though! It doesn't help that Fozzie sits there and calls me mommy and says "Let me out! Let me out!" Yeah...not so much you little pink vampire!

Anyway, that's what I'm living through with these babies who I love more than I can even put into words...until they sink their beaks into me! But they are full out attacking me and mean business for sure! That's definitely when you say enough is enough and I'm clipping your wings! If you aren't at that stage yet, I'd definitely play around with Elvis and see what he's up to. Keep him engaged when Howie doesn't have the time and is doing other things...make sure that Elvis can't focus on Howie if Howie can't give him his undivided attention. Make sure that Howie gives Elvis some undivided attention every now and then and maybe that will curb it too but when Howie doesn't have the time to give to Elvis, definitely keep Elvis away from Howie by either caging Elvis or keeping him occupied with something else. See if that helps at all. Definitely clip if he's doing a lot of fly by bites...especially to the face!
 

sunnysmom

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We had the problem with both Fozzie and Kishka flying at me to attack my head and face and it was getting very scary. It started with Kishka and it's the scariest thing I've ever been through. We had a lot of discussions about it with our vet. He suggested we house them together so they learned that they were birds. We did that and it did not help. I'm convinced our problems are hormonal in nature. Fozzie was rehomed because he was doing this in his old home and they couldn't take it anymore and when we took him in, Kishka wasn't doing it as badly and we had a good year with Fozzie before he got totally out of control. I finally decided to let the vet trim Kishka when we took him in to make sure that he was physically ok because I thought he was sick but he was just being a broody "teenager". This was right around the age of five. They started on one wing and I thought I was going to lose it. When they went to the other wing, he had several blood feathers coming in, so they couldn't really clip him well on that wing and when we got home, it didn't matter because Kishka would jump to get me and darn it, those light and fluffy Cockatoos can jump! His flights eventually grew back in and I gave up and just tried to be careful about handling them...only taking them out one at a time, really watching their body language, definitely only doing it when Jon wasn't around because Kishie seems to have chosen Jon as his mate. About a six months ago, I had them both out again and they were a disaster and I just clipped them both...I was done with it! I didn't feel bad at all because their behavior was so bad and the clipping helped a little bit. I could have them both out as long as Jon wasn't around but it lasted about a day! The thing is, they are so sweet behind bars. I can pet them and talk to them and they are just the sweetest but let them out and they are the devil incarnate! I keep telling myself that they will mellow with time. My male Leo from the pair we have who is in his mid to late teens is a sweet heart! And Reggie Lou who is 17 grew out of his craziness around the age of 12. These two are deviants though! It doesn't help that Fozzie sits there and calls me mommy and says "Let me out! Let me out!" Yeah...not so much you little pink vampire!

Anyway, that's what I'm living through with these babies who I love more than I can even put into words...until they sink their beaks into me! But they are full out attacking me and mean business for sure! That's definitely when you say enough is enough and I'm clipping your wings! If you aren't at that stage yet, I'd definitely play around with Elvis and see what he's up to. Keep him engaged when Howie doesn't have the time and is doing other things...make sure that Elvis can't focus on Howie if Howie can't give him his undivided attention. Make sure that Howie gives Elvis some undivided attention every now and then and maybe that will curb it too but when Howie doesn't have the time to give to Elvis, definitely keep Elvis away from Howie by either caging Elvis or keeping him occupied with something else. See if that helps at all. Definitely clip if he's doing a lot of fly by bites...especially to the face!

Oh my goodness- he says "Let me out!" Toos are way too smart.

Elvis is over 25. We don't know his exact age but past the teenage hormone years. However, as I think perhaps Jlcribber said previoulsy, perhaps a new home, better diet, etc has triggered those hormones extra hard. And perhaps we inadvertently fed into it with the blanket, etc. If I knew it was just hormones, I could ride it out. I'm putting him to bed earlier, etc. I'm just not sure what it is. And you're right, 'toos can hop! Elvis can jump feet straight in the air. It's pretty amazing to see. But the fly by bites do have me worried. It will probably take at least a week before I could get into see the vet anyway. And Elvis needs his nails clipped. Maybe I just make an appointment and then see how the week goes. I appreciate your help (and everyone else's :) ). It's impressive that you live with and manage that many 'toos. :)
 

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How did you get Quack to stop?

I haven't completely. I have a healing wound on my finger and one on my toe, although she hadn't bit me for quite awhile before those. And both of those were avoidable. The toe - I had kind of gotten lax in the bird room where she is more territorial but the last few times she went for my feet she didn't really bite so I thought maybe she was just bluffing. So I wasn't avoiding her like I usually do and she bit me through my wool sock and drew blood. Ok, so still territorial and means it. The finger was right after she had a little beak spar fight with Darwin and he had flown off. I touched her toe and asked if she was ok. But I also had a glass in my other hand. So still being upset and/or the glass contributed.

Mostly it is avoiding the bites, changing the routine, reading body language and avoiding triggers. With Quack I avoided picking her up with my hands for several years. It took me years to feel comfortable using my hand regularly to pick her up. So early on I tried using a handheld perch and she was terrified of them and would fly around the room. I tried gloves - terrified and would bite viciously through them. Luckily she was fairly obedient and would climb up onto her portable t-stand when I asked her to so I could bring her up or downstairs. Even if she was playing in the bathtub, she would climb the rope to get out when I asked. Then she got used to stepping onto a large rope perch. But it had to be large enough that my hand was not right in front of her (within range).

So, paying attention when she was on me was important.

I tried playing towel games with her to get her used to the towel but that resulted in nesty territorial biting when she emerged so that ended the towel games.

When I give her head rubs (every night before bed) I gently hold the tip of her beak with one hand while I rub her head and cheeks with the other. I don't hold hard enough to control her but if she suddenly jerks or tenses I feel it and can pull my hand away in time to not get bit.

When I need to move her and she is not cooperating (such as when she is on the bird room floor) I will hold the tip of her beak with 2 fingers of one hand (more firmly this time) while getting her to step up onto my other hand. I can then transport her to her cage or stand. This I only do when I need to get her somewhere right away. Otherwise she can have alone time in the bird room on the floor until she calls me to come get her. Sometimes it's in 5 minutes, sometimes an hour and sometimes I have to go lure her out with a pecan or something so she doesn't miss her out time completely.

But we have fun times together. She loves to dance. She loves to swing from the top of her cage before bed while I (or we) sing to her. And she loves for me to swing her upside down in the kitchen or living room. I ask her if she wants to swing and she'll step up. If she doesn't want to, she doesn't step up. So she is a fun bird with boundaries that are different from my other birds but boundaries I can live with.

I can hug Darwin but I can't hug Quack (knowingly). I accidentally picked her up twice and hugged her thinking she was Darwin after they had flown off in different directions. And when I thought it was him, and was not nervous about picking her up, she allowed it. Any other time I try I can't put my hand on her back. Occasionally she will allow me to touch her back but not in a hugging way.

Quack's issues are different than Elvis's though. She is a somewhat nervous bird. I think Elvis is likely more hormonal and/or testing the waters.

I did go through a year of Darwin biting hard when I first got him. Will write about it later.
 

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Oh my goodness- he says "Let me out!" Toos are way too smart.

Elvis is over 25. We don't know his exact age but past the teenage hormone years. However, as I think perhaps Jlcribber said previoulsy, perhaps a new home, better diet, etc has triggered those hormones extra hard. And perhaps we inadvertently fed into it with the blanket, etc. If I knew it was just hormones, I could ride it out. I'm putting him to bed earlier, etc. I'm just not sure what it is. And you're right, 'toos can hop! Elvis can jump feet straight in the air. It's pretty amazing to see. But the fly by bites do have me worried. It will probably take at least a week before I could get into see the vet anyway. And Elvis needs his nails clipped. Maybe I just make an appointment and then see how the week goes. I appreciate your help (and everyone else's :) ). It's impressive that you live with and manage that many 'toos. :)
Don't be that impressed!:) Addison RB2 is a dream and my mated pair, Leo and Letti RB2 require nothing of me except food and toys and an occasional chat. Reggie demands attention and loves to scream and then there are Fozzwald and Kishka who I love to bits but they scare the bejezzus out of me! Fozz definitely is a funny guy. We have interesting conversations. Kishie is the love of my life and I sure hope he decides I'm not chopped liver at some point. He was such a great little guy until about four and a half when the devil entered him and took over!

You'll figure things out with Elvis...just really pay attention to everything. Susan Friedman used to offer up the ABC classes on behavior that were so popular it was a year's wait to even get into them. I don't know if she's still doing that or not but if you can find them still or anything by Barbara Heidenreich, those are two great go to people for behavioral issues. There are some other really good ones out there and some behaviorists will do house calls. It's really all about learning to understand the behavior though.
 

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Thanks. It's frustrating for me because I don't know if "I" can fix the problem since Elvis doesn't bite me. I tell Howie all the time that he and Elvis have to work it out. LOL. It helps knowing though that you both, @jmfleish and @DQTimnehs, have survived life with bitey birds. I just hope Howie is willing to continue to work with Elvis.....

And I think I'm now in love with Quack and Kishka. I must have a thing for mischievous birds.
 

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Thanks. It's frustrating for me because I don't know if "I" can fix the problem since Elvis doesn't bite me. I tell Howie all the time that he and Elvis have to work it out. LOL. It helps knowing though that you both, @jmfleish and @DQTimnehs, have survived life with bitey birds. I just hope Howie is willing to continue to work with Elvis.....

And I think I'm now in love with Quack and Kishka. I must have a thing for mischievous birds.
I'd say that out of my two crazy birds, Fozzie is the more mischievous...he's the one who deliberately tries to con me...it's hilarious to hear both of us going back and forth..."Mommy! Let me out" "Nope!" "Let me out NOW!" "Not a chance Fozzie!" "Mommy!" "No way Fozz!" We can keep going like this for hours! Kishka just waits for pets...
 

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I'd say that out of my two crazy birds, Fozzie is the more mischievous...he's the one who deliberately tries to con me...it's hilarious to hear both of us going back and forth..."Mommy! Let me out" "Nope!" "Let me out NOW!" "Not a chance Fozzie!" "Mommy!" "No way Fozz!" We can keep going like this for hours! Kishka just waits for pets...
That's really funny. :lolsign:
 

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All I can say is that it worked for Dante, I only did it once or twice, but that's all it really took for him to calm down. I know a lot of people are against this idea, but if its getting to this point, where Elvis is hurting other people i think you should.
Mini Edit: I keep Dante so he can fly around the house, and I only have a cage when we take trips to the vet. How long do you keep Elvis in his cage, and I wouldn't really recommend clipping if you keep him in a cage often, that might make matters worse. So forget what I said before I guess.
Was Dante doing the fly by bites? Did he bite anyone in particular or just bit in general? I know clipping does work in some situations. So I'm glad you wrote. That's what I wanted, input on when people clipped and how it worked. :)

Elvis is in his cage while we're at work. Howie gets home a lot earlier than me. So when Howie was letting him out, Elvis was probably in his cage 6-7 hours a day. The past couple days, Howie has been waiting for me to get home to let out. So, he's been in his cage about 9 and a half hours.
 

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Clipping Elvis' wings is not going to do anything about the biting. It will only stop dive bombing. This whole thing is going to boil down to Howie being a better handler. A much better reader of body language and handling Elvis like a hot potato (because that's what he is).

The reactions and the game playing are all contributing factors. Honestly this is very typical cockatoo behaviour.
 

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I got blocked from this thread earlier at work because of "s e x". :rolleyes: We mentioned hormones I think and that's it.

So Darwin was more of a mischievous biter, testing me the first year I had him. Minus the first 3 months when he mostly stayed in his cage with his recovering broken wing.
He would bite hard, as scarring as Quack, but he would do a gleeful "woo woo woo woo" after. So he wasn't as scary but very annoying. :meh:

His list of triggers was long but easier as they were mostly material things, other than going back to the cage which I was warned about by his previous owner. I was not to put him back with my hand or he would bite. So I used his t-stand, which was fine since that's what he and Quack go up or downstairs on anyway. But he took it a step further and would bite when I put him on his t-stand in the kitchen, relating it to going back to the cage upstairs. That was an easy fix. Praise and a head rub when putting him on it so it's always a positive.

The material triggers: plastic bottles, cans, boxes, containers, cell phone, cell case, purse, slippers... Mostly easy to keep out of his reach when necessary. If I need to wash one of them, I move him from the tap (where he often perches) with a stick and wash and hide it quickly.

He is such a good bird, it's hard to believe he scarred me almost as much as Quack.

I hope Howie is willing as most of it will be up to him.
 
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