To clip or not to clip?

[Shinobi]

I totally disagree with wing clipping, by clipping you remove the birds ability to escape from scary and threating events. Kind of the same has removing your ability to run away from scary and threating events. By clipping wings you remove the birds ability to excise through flight. Kind of the same has removing your ability to excise by walking and/or running. By wing clipping you remove the birds independence and force it to be dependence on someone else. kind of the same has being unable to do things for yourself and relying on others. By wing clipping your bird you increase stress and anxiety through loss of flight. kind of the same when you lose the ability to walk and/or run.

there is no justifiable reasons to wing clip.

 

[ode.to.parrots]

there is no justifiable reasons to wing clip.

While I agree with you, I feel that presenting the pro-flighted argument in this way totally shuts down the questions and concerns of "clippers" (which already makes them sound like a monster) side of the argument. Because I do feel that their concerns for their parrots are genuine. The only two reasons I can think of that anyone would clip a bird's wings would be for safety and/or taming. Taming might, on the surface, seem like a more selfish reason to clip a bird's wings, but there is so much misinformation out there that people probably don't realize that there IS another option!

Besides, we are here to educate people, not intimidate them. I fear, too, that if we intimidate instead of educate, people will post saying "Oh, okay, I'll keep my bird flighted" but then, in reality, go clip their birds. Simply because they felt too intimidated to share their genuine concerns about keeping a flighted bird. Not to mention that these threads are available to the public eye - if people with genuine concerns see posts that jump into immediate wing-clipping-harsh-critiquing mode, they might not post their concerns here at all. Which is the opposite of our objective here. And you know who still loses the most when people don't feel comfortable asking questions and expressing concerns? The birds.

That being said, I do feel that there is a responsible and an irresponsible way to keep a flighted bird. People who have flighted birds but have no intention of doing flight training are putting a bird at risk, especially if they have a bird that is either a baby or previously clipped. People have to realize that birds need to learn how to fly well, and with some training, we can help them. Not to mention that, should a flighted bird ever accidentally fly outside, having recall training can save your bird's life and your peace of mind. Plus, many birds that get lost outside will often be within range, be able to see their human, but don't know how to fly down out of a tree simply because they never developed the flight muscles needed to fly at a descending angle (which is a much more difficult flight skill).

I meant to post this video last night, but video does a really good job at covering BOTH concerns that post people have when they consider clipping their birds wings:

P.S. I apologize for writing such long posts, but flighted vs. non-flighted is a pretty important part of living with birds.

 

[Lady Jane]

Both my budgies flight feathers were cut but by the breeder before fledging despite my request not to. Murphy just recently grew them back. It took almost 7 months. Mickey is younger and has not. For about 1 week Murphy was not flying well and has absolutely no flying or landing skills. I had to teach him. He actually hit the ceiling a few times.
He is OK with flying now. To see a grown bird not know how to fly is both scary and sad. If there would have been other EB breeders in my area I would have gone to them because of this breeder cutting flight feathers from a baby bird.

 

[cassiesdad]

This topic is and always will be a highly debated issue. Take into account what others opinions are, and find what works best for your situation.

Agreed. I'm fully committed to free-flight in birds.

What is cruel is Pinioning .

Also agreed...nothing more need be said about that subject.

 

[Shinobi]

While I agree with you, I feel that presenting the pro-flighted argument in this way totally shuts down the questions and concerns of "clippers" (which already makes them sound like a monster) side of the argument. Because I do feel that their concerns for their parrots are genuine. The only two reasons I can think of that anyone would clip a bird's wings would be for safety and/or taming. Taming might, on the surface, seem like a more selfish reason to clip a bird's wings, but there is so much misinformation out there that people probably don't realize that there IS another option!

• First of all, I put this across so people who are thinking of clipping their birds wings would take the time to put themselves into the birds perspective of how they would cope without the ability of flight, both physically and mentally. The excuses of safety and/or taming are at best, BAD excuses. I have seen so many posts of people who have had a wing clipped bird that has behaved like an angel. They have decided to let the bird regain it flight, only for it to bite and fly away from them. Why? because you can't force a bird to accept you has a friend. You have to earn it's trust and build a bond with it.
• Also, I read of posts where the bird can't fly properly due to a bad wing clip and yes folks you can't reverse a bad wing clip once it's done. Birds that have damaged their keel bone, beak and wings due to landing badly, all because of wing clipping.
• Yes there is another option and it's called interaction. This is done through training to build trust and to bond with your bird and you don't need to remove the birds ability of flight to achieve it. No misinformation about it. you just need to spend time with the bird.

Besides, we are here to educate people, not intimidate them. I fear, too, that if we intimidate instead of educate, people will post saying "Oh, okay, I'll keep my bird flighted" but then, in reality, go clip their birds. Simply because they felt too intimidated to share their genuine concerns about keeping a flighted bird. Not to mention that these threads are available to the public eye - if people with genuine concerns see posts that jump into immediate wing-clipping-harsh-critiquing mode, they might not post their concerns here at all. Which is the opposite of our objective here. And you know who still loses the most when people don't feel comfortable asking questions and expressing concerns? The birds.

• I think that if people took the time to put themselves into a wing clipped birds position and realised just how horrible it is for the bird, it would educate, not intimidate them. I think that empathy would open ones eyes into how a bird copes without flight. People with a genuine concern of their bird should do a lot of research before committing to a wing clip and then, ask themselves the question, are they wing clipping for the birds benefit or for their own.
• I don't believe or feel my post was in anyway harsh- critiquing but rather educational by informing people to look at wing clipping from the bird perspective rather than a humans.

That being said, I do feel that there is a responsible and an irresponsible way to keep a flighted bird. People who have flighted birds but have no intention of doing flight training are putting a bird at risk, especially if they have a bird that is either a baby or previously clipped. People have to realize that birds need to learn how to fly well, and with some training, we can help them. Not to mention that, should a flighted bird ever accidentally fly outside, having recall training can save your bird's life and your peace of mind. Plus, many birds that get lost outside will often be within range, be able to see their human, but don't know how to fly down out of a tree simply because they never developed the flight muscles needed to fly at a descending angle (which is a much more difficult flight skill).

• Birds teach themselves how to take off, manoeuvring, stabilising and landing. I believe it's called instinct. They become better as they gain more experience and become stronger. A bird that is kept has a companion will never match the flying ability of a wild bird. People need to make their house bird safe (covering mirrors and windows) and to teach their birds where they can and cannot land, restricting access to certain rooms of the house etc. Again this is interaction. I do agree that recall training is must. But I know of people who have had their bird escape outside and the bird has flown out of tree to them without recall training. (really good Bond)

I meant to post this video last night, but video does a really good job at covering BOTH concerns that post people have when they consider clipping their birds wings:

• I have very little faith in videos on the internet, too many amateurs posing has professionals. This is where a lot of misinformation stems from.

P.S. I apologize for writing such long posts, but flighted vs. non-flighted is a pretty important part of living with birds.

• There are a lot of important parts of living with birds, but wing clipping shouldn't be a part of it.

 

[theocnoob]

 

[schnitzle]

Does people being honest about something that they feel damages their birds offend you? Honestly, I can't deal with people who can't handle other's opinions. We have opinions. If you don't like them, don't talk to us about clipping. This is how non-clippers respond.

Honestly, no offense, but I feel like people who say things like what you've just said aren't suited to live in the real world.
Nobody is trying to shut down the clippers. It seems like clippers are all millenial type snowflakes who need safe spaces and quiet voices and need everything presented gently. Give me a break, man.

We feel like clippers are emotionally damaging (and physically due to lack of exercise) their parrots. If you don't like that, don't talk to us about it, and don't post in these threads.
If snowflakes had their way, free speech would completely disappear. Please don't mistake passion for harshness. The same arguments exist over male circumcision... and we can't even use our penises to fly. If we could fly with foreskin it would be an even more heated debate.

It really seems that you are the special snowflake that can't handle opposing views and are easily offended if someone disagrees with you.

I don't believe that clipping makes things better and don't think it should be done as just a matter of course (as was done to Lady Jane's budgies), but people won't take in information if you are mansplaining to them how they should think and berating them if they don't agree with you. Just put the information out there, stories of personal experiences are great, but don't be a jerk about it. How many people are turned away from getting information because an established forum member sees the opening to repeat a line that makes them feel smart and superior? I bet a lot.

"If you don't like that, don't talk to us about it, and don't post in these threads.
If snowflakes had their way, free speech would completely disappear."

Do you see the irony in these two lines?

 

[Just-passn-thru]

Everyone has a right to their opinions, my point of view is their is no one size fits all approach. There are many nuances to consder involved in the issue of wing trimming,training, so on and so forth.

Folks come on these forums seeking answer to their questions or advice. At the end of the day most gather information and apply what works best for their unique situation.
Remember, nothing is written in stone. What works for one bird may not work for another.

 

[MandaExotics]

I had no idea pinioning existed before this thread and I would consider that cruel. I'm with @schnitzle and @Just-passn-thru on this one. There are reasons to clip and reasons not to clip for everyone's situation. People that merely heed the advice of people on forums and youtube videos concern me as anybody can literally post anything. I've been on forums that said a 24"X20" was a great home for 2 budgies permanently and heard that cedar was an okay choice for iguanas. I don't trust anything I don't hear from an exotic certified vet or peer reviewed journal. Talk to your vet and do what you need to to ensure your animals are safe.

 

[theocnoob]

"If you don't like that, don't talk to us about it, and don't post in these threads.
If snowflakes had their way, free speech would completely disappear."

Do you see the irony in these two lines?

Touche

 

[ode.to.parrots]

The excuses of safety and/or taming are at best, BAD excuses.

I agree with you. But what you call excuses someone else may feel is a totally valid reason.

Yes there is another option and it's called interaction. This is done through training to build trust and to bond with your bird and you don't need to remove the birds ability of flight to achieve it. No misinformation about it. you just need to spend time with the bird

I agree with you.

I think that if people took the time to put themselves into a wing clipped birds position and realised just how horrible it is for the bird, it would educate, not intimidate them. I think that empathy would open ones eyes into how a bird copes without flight. People with a genuine concern of their bird should do a lot of research before committing to a wing clip and then, ask themselves the question, are they wing clipping for the birds benefit or for their own.

I also agree with you. But I feel that it is also essential for us as avian advocates to extend our empathy towards the human who is taking the time to figure out what is best for their bird. How many people do you really think take pleasure in inhibiting a being they love's ability to move freely and happily? Call me naive, but I would say very, very few to none at all.

I don't believe or feel my post was in anyway harsh- critiquing but rather educational by informing people to look at wing clipping from the bird perspective rather than a humans.

I must have misread your tone. I was anticipating the harsh-critiquing tone given the nature of this topic and read it that way, and for that I apologize.

But I know of people who have had their bird escape outside and the bird has flown out of tree to them without recall training. (really good Bond)

I am grateful that those birds were able to fly back down safely, even without the training. But I think attributing that to just bond is kind of insensitive to many people who have dearly loved and lost their birds, not for lack of bond, but because the bird did not know how to fly down. It is one of the most difficult skills associated with flight.

I have very little faith in videos on the internet, too many amateurs posing has professionals. This is where a lot of misinformation stems from.

Again, I agree with you. I trust people on youtube about as I would trust random people on a forum that I've never been on before. Isn't the point of the original poster presenting this question on a forum to get different perspectives on the matter? I included my own perspective, and then thought I'd share another perspective in addition to my own. That's all.

There are a lot of important parts of living with birds, but wing clipping shouldn't be a part of it

I agree. But the reality of it is that it is. So many people get their bird from a breeder or a pet store that will clip a bird's wings. It has been a default for many years. We are trying to change that. Even so, I would say living with a flighted parrot is going to change your own lifestyle IMMENSELY. So yes, I would say flight is a pretty essential part of living with birds. Though I will admit, my wording on that last line was off.

I hope that I did not come off as snarky or anything in any of my responses. You make a lot of really good points that I agree with, and again, I apologize for misreading your tone. I think essentially we agree, but we have different perspective on how to ultimately educate other people.

 

[ode.to.parrots]

@theocnoob You do realize that I agree with you on this issue, right? I would like as many companion parrots to have as many opportunities to safely fly as possible.

Honestly, I can't deal with people who can't handle other's opinions.

So then why is it that my opinion is so hard for you to handle?

I'm sorry for directing the conversation away from the original post. Hopefully we can get back on topic now.

 

[Cassandra.c87]

Wing clipping has always been a controversial subject and everyone has an opinion on it.
Keeping to the orignal topic no, clipping will not help with the bonding process. Through experience of purchasing clipped and flighted birds I have found no difference in my taming process. IF someone chooses to clip I only ask for you to look into a proper clip. Clipped birds should NOT fall to the ground, if they do there has been too many feathers clipped. A propper clip will not prevent flight but will limit it to some degree. Always start out small and always do both wings

 

[Just-passn-thru]

I had no idea pinioning existed before this thread and I would consider that cruel. I'm with @schnitzle and @Just-passn-thru on this one. There are reasons to clip and reasons not to clip for everyone's situation. People that merely heed the advice of people on forums and youtube videos concern me as anybody can literally post anything. I've been on forums that said a 24"X20" was a great home for 2 budgies permanently and heard that cedar was an okay choice for iguanas. I don't trust anything I don't hear from an exotic certified vet or peer reviewed journal. Talk to your vet and do what you need to to ensure your animals are safe.

Absolutely, once again, another scenario to reiterate that tried and true saying...Common sense ain't to common !

 

[XstatyK]

There isn't a single sensible reason to clip. It's illegal in some countries.

I'm not going to participate in another flame ware on the legality of clipping bird wings in other countries, I would like to state that to date, there has yet to be provided a valid source stating those state laws in other countries. (Specifically Sweden and Germany) Reference thread where this was proven not to be illegal in those countries is here (link to healthy debate)

 

[Shinobi]

There are reasons to clip and reasons not to clip for everyone's situation. People that merely heed the advice of people on forums and youtube videos concern me as anybody can literally post anything.

It seem that people still don't get it. This isn't about what best for humans situation, it's about what best for birds situation. Anything that has a long term detrimental effect on a bird, both physically and mentally shouldn't be implemented or used, EVER.

Through experience of purchasing clipped and flighted birds I have found no difference in my taming process. IF someone chooses to clip

I would have to disagree about the difference in the training process. I see too many posts of "my bird George was such an angel when he was wing clipped that I decided not to wing clip again. Now George is bitting and flying away from me. Should I have him wing clipped again?"
Answer is, No, spend time interacting with your bird and become his friend, instead on forcing yourself onto your bird. Remember that when getting to know a bird, is that you let the bird come to you. (Birds choice not yours).

Again the human get to choose about wing clipping.

but people won't take in information if you are mansplaining to them how they should think and berating them if they don't agree with you.

The term "mansplaining" came from liberal feminists who didn't like it when men "EXPLAINED" something. It's bad enough to see liberals having a temper tantrum over who won the election in the USA. But please leave these type of words at the door when here, and that includes the word "snowflake" too.

Our local pet store deals mainly in birds, no puppies or kittens. instead rehoming dogs and cats. The birds are given a wing clip. When I asked why, the reply was "control", the birds are easier to "CONTROL" because they become dependant on humans for everything. The staff member who does the wing clipping also said he has never seen ONE bird that was happy with their wings being clipped and it take up to a week for them to become happy again.

Rather then clipping the wings of a bird to suit the humans situation.
the human should change the situation to suit the bird.
If that can't be done, then reassess the situation to
decide if a bird should be put into that situation.

My opinion is let the bird choose if he wants to be wing clipped.

 

[Shinobi]

I'm not going to participate in another flame ware on the legality of clipping bird wings in other countries, I would like to state that to date, there has yet to be provided a valid source stating those state laws in other countries. (Specifically Sweden and Germany) Reference thread where this was proven not to be illegal in those countries is here (link to healthy debate)

I believe there are laws in most countries that state that it's illegal to harm animals. Such as Sweden and Germany. I think that it's the point of proving weither a wing clip is causing harm to the bird. If so then in countries like Sweden and Germany it would be illegal, providing it was proven to be harmful to the bird.

 

[schnitzle]

Got it, don't be a feminist here. Message received captain. And btw it was your bff who brought up the word snowflake, not me. Furthermore, "mansplaining" means a man explaining to a woman things she already knows. If you don't enjoy being called out in it I suggest you check yourself.

Serious question, are you a mod here @Shinobi ?

 

[Lady Jane]

Please read the original post and question. This thread is way off topic and should be closed as the other one was.

 

[MandaExotics]

It seem that people still don't get it. This isn't about what best for humans situation, it's about what best for birds situation. Anything that has a long term detrimental effect on a bird, both physically and mentally shouldn't be implemented or used, EVER.

It's not that I don't "get it" as you decided to phrase it.

I agree with @Lady Jane on this one, apparently having this conversation without issue on a forum isn't going to happen. To the OP I still advise to find a good avian vet and rescues in your area if possible and hear from their experiences as well.