To clip or not to clip?

[xgreenbudgiex]

Hi there,


Many of you have seen my post about getting a companion bird, for those who haven't, here is a link:
Considering getting a companion bird | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum


I have read various places that a good way to help with the bonding process when bringing home a bird is clipping their wings.
Apparently this is done to stop them flying away before they are fully tame.

I'm not sure I would do this, as flight is a birds main way of transport, but would be best to help me bond with my future bird?

What are you guys thoughts on this?
I am open to all ideas, just wanted to see you lovely peoples opinions

 

[theocnoob]

Don't clip.

Would you be ok with a 150 foot tall bird breaking your legs while it tamed you so you couldn't get away? It's a ridiculous thing to do IMO.

 

[xgreenbudgiex]

Don't clip.

Would you be ok with a 150 foot tall bird breaking your legs while it tamed you so you couldn't get away? It's a ridiculous thing to do IMO.

Yeah I don't like the idea of it, just wanted to see other peoples opinions.
Such a great way to describe it

 

[theocnoob]

Most people on here are anti-clip.

 

[sunnysmom]

Clipping wings for taming purposes is forced dependency. It's making the bird be with you, not letting the bird want to be with you. It's much better for a bird's mental and physical well being to remain flighted.

 

[xgreenbudgiex]

Most people on here are anti-clip.

Yeah there are very few sensible reasons to clip

 

[theocnoob]

Yeah there are very few sensible reasons to clip

There isn't a single sensible reason to clip. It's illegal in some countries.

 

[xgreenbudgiex]

There isn't a single sensible reason to clip. It's illegal in some countries.

Yeah I can see why.
Although apparently some people clip their birds if they live in apartments, but I still don't like it

 

[schnitzle]

Would you be ok with a 150 foot tall bird breaking your legs while it tamed you so you couldn't get away? It's a ridiculous thing to do IMO.

I just really need to get it off my chest how much I hate this "analogy". The quotes are on purpose. It's hyperbole and doesn't help the conversation.
Nothing personal @theocnoob, I've seen others post the same thing which is why it struck a nerve.

 

[theocnoob]

I just really need to get it off my chest how much I hate this "analogy". The quotes are on purpose. It's hyperbole and doesn't help the conversation.
Nothing personal @theocnoob, I've seen others post the same thing which is why it struck a nerve.

Are you a clipper? I think it's a pretty accurate analogy. No offense intended.

 

[schnitzle]

Why would you think I was a "clipper" (I assume you mean I think people should clip bird's wings?) just because I don't appreciate the analogy? I have one bird I got 2 weeks ago, so I don't have enough experience one way or the other.

My problem is with the analogy its self. Comparing breaking a human's legs to clipping a birds wings is hyperbole used to elicit an emotional response. Humans have one mode of ambulation. If you break my legs, I can't fly to get around instead. Also people don't break a bird's wings to prevent them from flying, so it's a bad comparison in that regard as well. I just feel like it's something people say here to shut down the conversation. No one wants to be the horrible person that goes around breaking an animals legs, do they?

I've given up on ever getting both side's point of view on this issue in this forum because of just such statements.

 

[Just-passn-thru]

I think a light wing trim is ok, I personally don't have an issue with it, especially when you bring a new bird home . In my personal experience it always worked out favorably. .. I am able to teach the step-up and step -down command, (YES THEY DEPENDED ON ME ...) I feel is one of great importance, in a companion bird. Flight feathers grow back. What is cruel is Pinioning . My birds are now fully flighted, in the beginning I had trimmed the wings. They are none the worse -off because of it. Although now with flighted birds they do have the ability to be what they are designed to be. But I can at any time reach-out my arm for them to step -up and step-down, because of the early association and my ability to be able to handle them.

 

[theocnoob]

Why would you think I was a "clipper" (I assume you mean I think people should clip bird's wings?) just because I don't appreciate the analogy? I have one bird I got 2 weeks ago, so I don't have enough experience one way or the other.

My problem is with the analogy its self. Comparing breaking a human's legs to clipping a birds wings is hyperbole used to elicit an emotional response. Humans have one mode of ambulation. If you break my legs, I can't fly to get around instead. Also people don't break a bird's wings to prevent them from flying, so it's a bad comparison in that regard as well. I just feel like it's something people say here to shut down the conversation. No one wants to be the horrible person that goes around breaking an animals legs, do they?

I've given up on ever getting both side's point of view on this issue in this forum because of just such statements.

I think you are overreacting and having only had one bird for 14 days doesn't really put you in a position to understand the bird mind (I still don't and I've been a parront for almost ten years). With all due respect, clipping a parrots wings is emotionally distressing to the bird. Especially if the bird is new to the home and feels threatened by humans in that home. Yes, birds can walk and run, as well as fly. But they can't run nearly as fast as they can fly, nor can they get to as many places by running as they can by flying. I could use your analogy against you by saying that even if you break a human's legs, he/she can still drag him/herself around using his/her arms.

Not trying to be a dick but I don't think you understand the mindset of most bird people or of birds. Our birds are our children.

And yes, I'm trying to elicit an emotional response, as is anybody else who uses this analogy. Naturally we are worried that new parrot owners are not fully aware of the kind of bond that humans and parrots can have, and that they don't understand the parrot mind, so we try to give graphic representations of what wing clipping does to the bird emotionally.

And btw, you have already gotten both sides of the argument. This is the anti-clip side. I'm part of that side. The clip side which consists of maybe 4 people on this entire forum can give you their side, free of graphic hyperbole and analogy, and you can make your choice.

If you, or any other new parrot owner decides to clip, please have it done by a vet. You only need to screw up by a few cm to go from a bird that glides to one that crashes into the ground and breaks bones.

 

[Just-passn-thru]

Hi there,


Many of you have seen my post about getting a companion bird, for those who haven't, here is a link:
Considering getting a companion bird | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum


I have read various places that a good way to help with the bonding process when bringing home a bird is clipping their wings.
Apparently this is done to stop them flying away before they are fully tame.

I'm not sure I would do this, as flight is a birds main way of transport, but would be best to help me bond with my future bird?

What are you guys thoughts on this?
I am open to all ideas, just wanted to see you lovely peoples opinions

This topic is and always will be a highly debated issue. Take into account what others opinions are, and find what works best for your situation.

 

[schnitzle]

I'm overreacting. Got it. . I've owned pets all of my life, just haven't had a bird in the last 20, so I do understand feeling that your pets are your kids. You're assuming a lot about me and you do not know me at all. I'm not even arguing about clipping or not clipping. I'm saying that analogy sucks. It's like saying "I'm against death with dignity. Would you want to kill your own grandparents?!". If you can't see that then there's not much I can do.
I won't argue with you further because you're not understanding my point and this is not helping the original poster.

 

[theocnoob]

I'm overreacting. Got it. . I've owned pets all of my life, just haven't had a bird in the last 20, so I do understand feeling that your pets are your kids. You're assuming a lot about me and you do not know me at all. I'm not even arguing about clipping or not clipping. I'm saying that analogy sucks. It's like saying "I'm against death with dignity. Would you want to kill your own grandparents?!". If you can't see that then there's not much I can do.
I won't argue with you further because it's not you're not understanding my point and this is not helping the original poster.

Well I resent you saying my analogy sucks, and yes I do believe in death with dignity.

"You're assuming a lot about me and you do not know me at all"

Exactly. We must assume that all new parrot owners are starting from zero and have no idea of the psychological damage that wing clipping can be responsible for

 

[Just-passn-thru]

I'm overreacting. Got it. . I've owned pets all of my life, just haven't had a bird in the last 20, so I do understand feeling that your pets are your kids. You're assuming a lot about me and you do not know me at all. I'm not even arguing about clipping or not clipping. I'm saying that analogy sucks. It's like saying "I'm against death with dignity. Would you want to kill your own grandparents?!". If you can't see that then there's not much I can do.
I won't argue with you further because it's not you're not understanding my point and this is not helping the original poster.

Good idea not worth the aggravation ...to each his own

 

[ode.to.parrots]

Well. This thread is already a can of worms, but hopefully we can all talk about this more calmly from this point on... I know it can be tough, especially since figuring out what is "best" for our bird involves so many factors: safety, emotional well being, health, life fulfillment, and so on.

I feel like my bird Buckbeak is the best example for this. In his previous life (before I became his caretaker), he used to (as I heard through the grapevine) bite to draw blood. He had a mate at the time and was SUPER protective of her and their cage. So he bit people's hands when they tried to pick him up. One day, his mate tramatically flew into a window or a bookcase or something and died instantly. Because of this horrible freak accident, Buckbeak's wings were clipped. After that (surprise) he started stepping up for them and was an easier bird to handle. Because he was dependent on them to get around.

Fast forward to his new life with me. I've allowed him and Indy bird to be fully flighted. Fortunately, I have NOT had any freak accidents, although Indy did give me a few scares while he was trying to figure out flying (mostly trying to land on something, undershooting it, and landing in a weird place. I never provoked them to fly - they would just take off when startled by something). I will say they are both VERY good fliers now. I don't worry so much now when they take off flying. In fact, I can enjoy watching them flying their laps now, and look forward to getting a bigger space for them to fly in. I am also eager (although struggling) to include flight training such as recall into their routines.

Buckbeak has never bit me to draw blood. It helps that I pay attention to his body language and know when to back off, and he knows that he does not have to resort to biting to get the point across. It also helps, though, that he can just fly away if feels pressured or threatened or whatever.

That being said, he does not consistently step up. At all. Sometimes he'll step up, but it is usually for my fiance (who he loves), or if he is on the floor or whatever. And even then, he prefers it when I cover my hand with my sleeve. And he does not step up from me from his cage. Sometimes I worry that if he needed to get to the vet in an emergency or evacuate the house or something, and my fiance were not there, I would have to resort to grabbing him to get him to safety.

I've come a long way in building my relationship with him, but we still have a long way to go. Sure, I could clip him and he'd step up then. But does that really help him build his trust in me? I doubt it. It may take longer to teach him to step up while he is flighted and independent, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Again though, there are a LOT of factors to consider.

 

[ode.to.parrots]

I also want to share some video resources that explain not only why to keep a bird flighted but how to keep that flighted bird SAFE!!! I feel like most people who consider clipping a birds wings do it for one or two reasons: safety (afraid of bird flying into window/mirror/ceiling fan and hurting itself, afraid of bird flying away) or taming (not sure how to go about taming and training a bird that is flighted).

These are youtubbers who have their own opinions and perspectives, but I feel like their voices are a positive contribution to this discussion:
wingsnpaws has MULTIPLE videos on why to keep a bird flighted. As someone who used to clip his bird, he has some really good insights into the fears and misconceptions that may lead people to clip a bird's wings. This is a very brief sample:

There is also this birdstricks video, and although I don't personally agree with ALL of the advice or training methods that birdtricks has out there, this one on alternatives to clipping for specifically taming is helpful:

 

[xgreenbudgiex]

Well well well,
This thread seems to have fired up a lot more than I expected



I just want to say a big thank you to all you lovely people for replying,
I really was just wanting to see what experienced people like you think about this topic.

For those wanting to know, I never have, and most likely never will clip a birds wings.
(Chickens are an exception )


Birds were given the gift of flight, and who are we to take that away from them?

I know others may look at it from a completely different angle, but hey, thats ok.
We are all different, see things differently, have different opinions.
Thats just people for you.


Well anyway I think thats all I have to say....

Again, thank you for sharing your opinions