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TBD Cause of 11 Bird Deaths

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Mizzely

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I think because Zupreem is the only common denominator between the deaths she is connecting
 

jmfleish

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In addition to the layout of the house, there was no means of air circulation between closed rooms. Their heating system was a boiler in the basement with radiators on the top floors - no forced air. Both of my birds had swollen damaged lungs - not from external toxins, but from toxins produced by fungus and or bacteria.

I'm saying, and always have, that it is not known what caused this die off, but nothing including contaminated food can be excluded. Nothing can be excluded, so everything must be included.
Mary Lynn,

Your birds had asper correct? They had lung symptoms not gastrointestinal and liver symptoms? This is caused by Aspergillus fumigatus. It's from breathing in mold that is in the air constantly and usually affects animals with a compromised immune system. It affects the lungs of it's host (it's literally a lung disease). Aspergillus parasiticus, is a similar mold that comes from a group of chemically similar toxic fungal metabolites called mycotoxins but causes different symptoms. The symptoms include gastrointestinal symptoms (nausea, vomiting and giddiness) followed by effects on the central nervous system (drowsiness, prolonged sleepiness, twitching, convulsions, blindness and paralysis). Two totally different diseases that are caused by similar molds but contracted in different ways and present in different ways.
 

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I think because Zupreem is the only common denominator between the deaths she is connecting
But there are literally no deaths that can be connected. Just because a bird eats Zupreem and dies does not a connection make. Can we not all agree on that? In order for a true scientific connection to be made, you need a necropsy and you have to test the food that the dead bird ate. You can't just say, my bird died after he ate said food. I've seen absolutely no necropsies and no food testing in any other situation except her one necropsy. You cannot base anything but heresay on circumstances such as these. Last time I checked, this is not the way we form sound, scientific facts.
 

Mizzely

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I'm not on either side. I don't know what it is. I'm just trying to explain the thought process based on the information available.
 

jmfleish

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I'm not on either side. I don't know what it is. I'm just trying to explain the thought process based on the information available.
I get it...I'm just trying to point out in the most simplest of terms that the thought process makes absolutely no scientific sense!:) I'm all for making the best decision for your own birds and if you don't feel comfortable feeding Zupreem then, by all means, don't. But I'm begging people to at least keep an open, scientific mind about what we do know about the situation and right now, we have no reason to believe it's the food. It might be, but nothing scientifically points to it. Birds aren't dying in the thousands and the product is being sold in mass quantities and has been before this happened. I don't know that we will ever know what happened. As sad as that is to say.
 

Hankmacaw

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It would be simplistic to say, well your birds had Asper and so this and that happened. That is not the case. They were immunocompromised and as a result picked up every bacteria and fungus that came along, even while they were actively involved with Asper - Hank in particular since he had had chronic Asper for some time before I got him. Hank's Asper was not present in his lungs for several months after he was finally diagnosed. It was resident on this testes, liver and kidneys in the beginning then migrated to the lungs finally. Jasper's Asper was most significantly in her air sacs and lungs.

As all of us know, or should know, medicine is not a pure science it is a lot art and guesswork - especially with parrots. Ami is a good example of that truth as are Hank and Jasper. Dr. Driggers once made the statement that Hank had made him be a much better veterinarian.
 

enigma731

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As all of us know, or should know, medicine is not a pure science it is a lot art and guesswork - especially with parrots.
That's really not true, though. Differential diagnosis involves hypothesis testing for sure, but it's very much based on being logical and systematic. One of the worst things you can do in diagnostic medicine is to allow your emotions about a situation to bias you. Yes, there is such a thing as a clinical "gut sense" but it always always has to be based on an empirical rationale.
 

jmfleish

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It would be simplistic to say, well your birds had Asper and so this and that happened. That is not the case. They were immunocompromised and as a result picked up every bacteria and fungus that came along, even while they were actively involved with Asper - Hank in particular since he had had chronic Asper for some time before I got him. Hank's Asper was not present in his lungs for several months after he was finally diagnosed. It was resident on this testes, liver and kidneys in the beginning then migrated to the lungs finally. Jasper's Asper was most significantly in her air sacs and lungs.

As all of us know, or should know, medicine is not a pure science it is a lot art and guesswork - especially with parrots. Ami is a good example of that truth as are Hank and Jasper. Dr. Driggers once made the statement that Hank had made him be a much better veterinarian.
What I'm trying to say is that there are two different types of toxins, one causes asper that is predominately found in the lungs and air sacs and is caused by breathing in mold that is always present in the air. The other is by eating molds that are found on foods called mycotoxins and generally do not cause issues with the lungs but cause gastrointestinal issues and liver issues. Similar toxins, different issues. I don't know Jasper's medical history and perhaps he had both types.
 

Hankmacaw

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Yepper and my vet had to turn to "gut sense" quite a bit, because Hank was a unique case. He consulted wit Dr. Speers, Dr. Wissman, Dr. Ortiz (SP) and others. I'm sorry, but things aren't as cut and dried as you seem to think. Been there, been through it.
 

rocky'smom

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Ok I finally got a hold of some one and not just voicemail saying we will call you back in such such time. She took my information and the info from those bags of food. She promised that either she or somebody in DC would call me back.
Apparently some body gave me her cell # which was not suppose to be a public number. She was very kind and really concerned that she had not heard of this prior to my call. Hopefully I will get down to some type of truth.
 

enigma731

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Yepper and my vet had to turn to "gut sense" quite a bit, because Hank was a unique case. He consulted wit Dr. Speers, Dr. Wissman, Dr. Ortiz (SP) and others. I'm sorry, but things aren't as cut and dried as you seem to think. Been there, been through it.
And I do it every day. I seriously don't understand what the opposition is to my suggesting that best practices need to be used when everyone here wants an answer. If one of your vets or @jmfleish 's vets came on here and said the same thing directly, what would your response be?
 

Hankmacaw

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Asper is caused by the Aspergillus fungus (most often Aspergillus Fumigatus although other strains cause the disease) As the fungus grows in the animal a mycotoxin is produced. But that isn't the major damage, the major damage is cause by the fungus destroying the tissues as they eat them. There are two types of Aspergillosis in parrots- chronic aspergillosis and acute aspergillosis.

If you wasn't to know all there is to know about Aspergillus here is the place: Search site | Aspergillus & Aspergillosis Website

I haven't read it for some time because I'm sick of Asper and Hank has died.
 

Hankmacaw

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My vet has made a statement and I disagree with him, as I have disagreed with him before.
 

Mizzely

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I'm staying in the middle because I understand the science, yes, but at the same time something clearly happened. And it reminds me of the chinese jerky dog treats situation.

Pet stores are pulling Chinese-made dog treats after years of mystery dog illnesses and deaths - The Washington Post

"Thousands of pets have fallen ill since 2007, and hundreds more have died. In all,the FDA has fielded some 5,000 complaints of pet illnesses directly tied to the consumption of chicken, duck, and vegetable jerky treats made in China. But despite testing more than a thousand samples, inspecting factories in China, and soliciting third party input, the agency has yet to establish the cause."

So even with a HUGE sampling, from 2007 to 2015, they had not yet figured out what was killing dogs.

https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ProductSafetyInformation/ucm360951.htm

It wasn't until 2016 that they updated with a thread to follow:

https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm500776.htm

"During the investigation, FDA detected antimicrobial and antiviral residues in an imported duck jerky product and added duck jerky products to the testing methodology in 2015."


THEY STILL DON'T KNOW.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/herky-jerky/

"Although the FDA has been actively investigating the reports of illnesses, no definitive cause has been determined. The ongoing global investigation is complex, multifaceted and includes a wide variety of experts at the FDA including toxicologists, epidemiologists, veterinary researchers, forensic chemists, microbiologists, field investigators and senior agency officials."

All we DO know is suspected deaths have plummeted since the pet shops started to remove the products from shelves and FDA said their MAY be a link.



This isn't as simple as testing the food and it was fine. These jerky treats have been tested FOR YEARS and they STILL don't know why they are dangerous.


That's why I'm not keen to rule it out.
 

Clueless

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For what it's worth, I, for one, appreciate that Shannon put the information out there on Facebook. I appreciate that the posts are updated here for those of us without Facebook.

I understand the enormous grief she felt and continues to live with at the loss of her birds.

I know people with medical issues that can't get answers. I'm not surprised that there isn't an easy answer here either.

I refuse to say anything negative about Shannon because she provided information immediately about this incident to the avian community. She shared. That's a big deal in my book. She could have been all hush/hush.

The sad thing is..... if someone reads these posts will they come out and say anything publicly if, in the future, they encounter an issue with a product that could potentially kill an animal? Or will they remember the mud slinging.
 

Mizzely

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To add to my chicken jerky thing

"The first illnesses were noted in 2006 (6 reports). "

Six. It started with 6 dogs. An anomaly. How many dogs were eating those? 6 isn't statistically relevant.

These were big name producers, too.

"FDA documents obtained by the publisher suggest a possible link to three popular chicken jerky products and their big name producers:

  • Waggin’ Train Jerky Treats or Tenders (Nestle Purina)
  • Canyon Creek Ranch Jerky Treats or Tenders (Nestle Purina)
  • Milo’s Kitchen Home-Style Dog Treats (Del Monte Corp)"
So thousands of dogs were likely eating these treats, and yet only 6 died to start.

Now 12 YEARS later we still don't know why.

This is why I can't say "not the food."

References
More on Chicken Jerky Pet Treat Alert | Food Safety News

Three Name Brands Top FDA List of Chicken Jerky Treats Suspects
 

finchly

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And on and on it goes.

Not having forced air DOES NOT MEAN there is no air circulation. Air moves, unless you mean the doors were completely sealed (in which case they'd be pretty hard to open. And if you opened them, the air moved....)

A common food does not mean it's the culprit, and doesn't mean it's not (except for the science that shows the food wasn't contaminated, and the birds didn't have signs of food toxicity).

Why are we arguing, still? Go pet your birds.
 

ConureTiel

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I just wish that from the beginning Shannon had asked for reports of bird deaths from birds eating ANY of the three brands fed to her birds. She just keeps asking for people to let her know of deaths from birds who eat Zupreem. That's just nonsensical. There was not enough information conclude it was the food, but if one is still concerned/suspicious, then that concern should extend to all three brands IMO. They all got tested by UW [oops, MSU - thanks for the reminder], right? So why the suspicion on Zupreem? It seems to be because to some, Zupreem's statements didn't seem empathetic enough, and they didn't immediately re-test on their own -- instead citing the tests they'd already done as part of their regular procedures.

Hopefully Laurie's contact with provide some answers, at least from the FDA's perspective.
 
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rocky'smom

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They necropies were done Michigan state university
 
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