TBD Cause of 11 Bird Deaths

[Mizzely]

Thanks for posting the update @Mizzely

Also, this is neither here nor there, but as a general practice, I would not buy pellets from the bulk bin. When I first found Wally on the street, I called a local rescue number I found on the internet and the woman I spoke to advised me to buy some from a pet store in town. I did this for the first few months I had Wally, but after I bought my first bag of Tropican pellets, I immediately noticed a difference in the quality. I understand it may be a financially-driven decision to buy from the bulk bin, but I think theres more opportunities for contamination.

Agreed. More risk for contamination and you can't readily check batch numbers, expiration dates, etc

 

[enigma731]

It was from the bulk bin but also definitely from those batches?

THIS is what's hard about it: the combination of alarmist language and conflicting facts.

 

[Hankmacaw]

That's what she said - are you accusing her of lying?

 

[enigma731]

There's a difference between volitionally lying and being blinded by emotion. I'm not sure which is going on here but both can be equally harmful to people outside the situation

 

[Hankmacaw]

Neither will be harmful to anyone, as long as everyone stays independent and only considers the evidence - which none of us has access to the entire body of evidence yet/now. I find it very disturbing when some make a great effort influence everyone to their own conclusion, using only their own opinion and nothing else.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for my fellow humans' intelligence and think that they can reach conclusions without my influence. Besides, I have never considered myself my brother's keeper and don't think that they need a keeper.

 

[enigma731]

I find it very disturbing when some make a great effort influence everyone to their own conclusion, using only their own opinion and nothing else.

Me too. Ironically, that's my point.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Then stop your ranting about how you know what the answer just can't be and that someone is lying. You don't KNOW anything, you don't have all of the evidence, nor do you have the results of the tests - none of us knows what the answer is or isn't.

 

[enigma731]

I have never once said that I know. I have only ever stated concern for maintaining the scientific integrity of the investigation, because I want an answer to be found just like the rest of you. I have pointed out areas that I think are concerning for their likelihood of obscuring the truth of the situation. I will not stop expressing my concerns in that regard when I believe it is important for the health and wellbeing of both birds and owners. So let's just agree to disagree and move on with it.

P.S. Please stop putting words in my mouth. My posts are right there.

 

[rocky'smom]

Ok I called FDA mpls again today, I am so fed up with we will return your call in 1 business day and never call you back. Dr Tony has also called several times himself both mpls and federal with no return calls either.

 

[Garet]

I agree with @enigma731. Bulk places generally don't sell packaged food, and they can't guarantee that what you're getting is specifically from those two batches, or even from a single batch. Bulk bins are basically places with giant bins where anyone can stick their fingers, hands, or the little scoops from another bin in there. They mix old stuff with new stuff and don't provide air-tight containers. Some of the containers are see-through, some have bags preventing you from seeing what's at the bottom. It's generally stuff like candy and chocolates that are in the clear bins because they have a high turn-over rate, unlike products like seeds, chips, bird food, cake mixes, ect.

This seems more like a cautionary tale to avoid feeding a bird bulk bin food rather than a certain brand. Chances are, the rest of their bird food is contaminated as well, regardless of brand.

 

[painesgrey]

This seems more like a cautionary tale to avoid feeding a bird bulk bin food rather than a certain brand. Chances are, the rest of their bird food is contaminated as well, regardless of brand.

Speaking as someone that worked in pet stores: never buy from the bulk bins. Not only did the stores I worked in not keep track of how old the food was, but the less scrupulous store did things that would make your skin crawl:

Any bag of food that was opened accidentally was mixed into the bulk bins. In this store, the usual culprit for opened bags? Mice.

Yeah....

 

[Hjarta5]

It was from the bulk bin but also definitely from those batches?

THIS is what's hard about it: the combination of alarmist language and conflicting facts.

I think the rescue was just reiterating the batch numbers from the fruity Zupreem bags she had used; I dont think she was purposefully making any statement that the bulk bin pellets can be traced to these batches other than that they were also fruity Zupreems.

 

[enigma731]

But again, that's the kind of thing that obscures actual information in a case like this. I'm not pointing this stuff out to be mean, this kind of study design is part of my actual job.

 

[Hjarta5]

But again, that's the kind of thing that obscures actual information in a case like this. I'm not pointing this stuff out to be mean, this kind of study design is part of my actual job.

I get it, you want empirical facts so you can make your own assessment and these ambiguities bother you. But its just a FB post written by a single person running a rescue out of her own house; she doesnt have editors, copywriters, etc We are really just the peanut gallery despite wanting to be the fact finder or peer review team.

For what its worth, I started this thread and at the time titled my post, "To Be Determined" -- and there may never be an answer. I just wanted to put this incident out there as a reminder to be careful in how we take care of our beloved birds

 

[rocky'smom]

Update from today:

Over the past few days I've had a few people say "I'll quit feeding those batches of food when I see proof it was the food that killed your birds."

Sadly, some of those people will likely get that proof.

Again. 2 batches of food. We're not against Zupreem. We're not even telling you not to feed it. All we're saying is birds died here. Birds died in at least 2 other rescues after feeding those batches. Birds died in a bunch of private households across the US after feeding new bags.

The FDA is still actively doing necropsies, histopathologies and testing foods for birds across the nation.

They are looking for a needle in a haystack. It's incredibly hard to identify a toxin that is not obvious.

You do what you want for your birds - but this has been our experience.

"I've been feeding this food for 20+ years without a problem."

Yeah. Me too. I fed that pellet for 20+ years without a problem too. Right up until there was one and I lost 11 birds in one night.

You guys have the information. Do with it what you will. But if you're asking for proof before you stop feeding it - I'm going to be heartbroken for you if you get it in a real life scenario.

The most recent death reported to us was yesterday. Gal gets food from the bulk bin. Zupreem Fruit. Feeds her 3 macaws. 2 wouldn't touch it. 1 gobbled it. The one who gobbled it died of the same symptoms yesterday morning. My heart bleeds for her.

2 batches. That's it. Use a different batch. Feed Zupreem Naturals. Just avoid those two batches. Is this so tough?

10287 865309107 Use By: 3/31/19

09137 862908047 Use by: 2/28/19

Ok read this again everybody, Shannon did not say that the food that she fed her flock came from a bulk bin, but another person that fed her macaws bought her food from bulk bin. NOT SHANNON!!! Time to slow down and read the information carefully not speed read it.
Some of us are trying to find out the truth here, if the FDA would cooperate with us it would greatly help. But we are TRYING...

 

[enigma731]

I did not misread it. That's exactly my point about what's dangerous here -- the way Shannon's post is worded implies that the latest birds who died ate the same food as her birds. Just like her survey where she asks for an incredibly biased sample and then continues offering those responses as evidence. I'm not saying she's doing it on purpose, I don't care to speculate about her motives, but it IS dangerous.

You know what a big part of epidemiological investigation is based on? Reports from people involved in the incident. The more people who get involved who aren't being objective, the harder it will be for even the FDA (if they are involved) to do their job. That's why I think her posts and especially her survey are at this point harmful. Warning people about her opinion on those batches is one thing, repeatedly saying things like "if you want evidence then you'll probably find out when your birds die" is harmful.

 

[rocky'smom]

Dang it your preaching is also your assumption, I don't know what your job is, at this point I really don't care. BUT QUIT ASSUMING for the rest of us, ok. I find it very hard to understand how you seem to have all the answers when NOBODY ELSE DOES. Rocky'smom

 

[finchly]

She isn’t preaching. She is correct about the investigation, the lack of evidence of toxins in the food itself, the slanderous way Zupreem’s food is being discussed, and that the facts keep getting distorted.

I hate that this topic and the misrepresentation of the facts and the whole mess is dividing our forum.

@enigma731 I was once told I was the lone voice crying in the wilderness. I now hand that torch off to you.

 

[enigma731]

It's a really sad world where just saying "hey, let's try to be rational about this" draws this kind of vitriol.

 

[rocky'smom]

Ok I just talked to Dr Tony again, he called 5times in the last week, I have called 3 times last week 2times this week, plus I have left messages both federal and state depts of the FDA.
Unless @enigma731 is a part of this investigation and not saying so, I feel that it is assumption on their part. Most of us just want to find out the truth.