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Target training trouble

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Skullie6687

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Ohio
Real Name
Becky
Hello. I would appreciate any feedback.I have been clicker training my 12 year old CAG for two weeks, and we are stuck. My end goal is to have him step up to both me and my husband. He is bitey, so we are trying a perch first. He knows the drill well. He targets a chopstick. The problem is that I will keep pulling the chopstick farther and farther away, and once it is out of his reach, he gives up. This bird will lean and stretch as far as he can, and once he realizes he cant reach it, he pulls away.This is happening in his cage as we try to lure him out. If he comes out on his own, he will run around the top of the cage freely and target the chopstick. But, once we try to get him off the cage onto the perch, the same thing happens. He leans and stretches rather than actually step on the perch. He doesn't lift a foot, even. I feel like every time he stretches and I don't click, he doesn't get it and I'm frustrating him, and we are moving backwards. What can I do to get him to take that step? He doesn't beak the perch, so I can't click for that. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it.
 

CeddysMum

Biking along the boulevard
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Astrid (formerly: 'featherbaby')
Hmmm, can't really help you, sorry. Ceddy and I have developed our very own way of 'target training'. I just thought I'd bump this up for you hoping more experienced trainers might see it :)
 

BraveheartDogs

Cruising the avenue
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San Francisco Bay Area
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Vicki
Hello. I would appreciate any feedback.I have been clicker training my 12 year old CAG for two weeks, and we are stuck. My end goal is to have him step up to both me and my husband. He is bitey, so we are trying a perch first. He knows the drill well. He targets a chopstick. The problem is that I will keep pulling the chopstick farther and farther away, and once it is out of his reach, he gives up. This bird will lean and stretch as far as he can, and once he realizes he cant reach it, he pulls away.This is happening in his cage as we try to lure him out. If he comes out on his own, he will run around the top of the cage freely and target the chopstick. But, once we try to get him off the cage onto the perch, the same thing happens. He leans and stretches rather than actually step on the perch. He doesn't lift a foot, even. I feel like every time he stretches and I don't click, he doesn't get it and I'm frustrating him, and we are moving backwards. What can I do to get him to take that step? He doesn't beak the perch, so I can't click for that. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it.
He is not yet ready for that step. Whatever you are wanting him to step on our step out of is something he isn't ready for. Even if an animal has learned a behavior like touching a target stick, their emotional response will trump all training. In other words, emotional responses (fear) will override training. What happens sometimes (I see this with dogs all the time) is that people will mistakenly have strangers try to offer their fearful dogs treats, all this does is force the animal to get close to strangers (not good) and go into conflict (I really want the food, but it's attached to a scary person). When the food is gone the dog realizes he is in trouble and sometimes they bite at the very least they panic to escape. I would play with other perches, and continue other types of targeting just around the cage. Is there anyway you can you a stand where you aren't holding it? Also, when he finally does step up, leave your hand there so he can immediately step back off.
 

Skullie6687

Meeting neighbors
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Ohio
Real Name
Becky
Thanks, Vicki. Follow up questions if you don't mind... I think he is afraid, in general, and maybe of me. Are there basics I can do to earn his trust? Not sure why he's afraid of me, but he does much better around my husband.Also, should the trainer ever stop reinforcing the basics to try to get him to "do more"? Meaning, once he is targeting the stick 100% of the time, but gets to the point where he won't step up when the stick is put farther away, should I ever stop clicking at the step directly before the point I want him to step up?Sorry if that is confusing. I hope you understand what I mean.
 

BraveheartDogs

Cruising the avenue
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11,119
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San Francisco Bay Area
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Vicki
Thanks, Vicki. Follow up questions if you don't mind... I think he is afraid, in general, and maybe of me. Are there basics I can do to earn his trust? Not sure why he's afraid of me, but he does much better around my husband.Also, should the trainer ever stop reinforcing the basics to try to get him to "do more"? Meaning, once he is targeting the stick 100% of the time, but gets to the point where he won't step up when the stick is put farther away, should I ever stop clicking at the step directly before the point I want him to step up?Sorry if that is confusing. I hope you understand what I mean.
Yes, I know what you mean and it's a great question. Normally, yes, you would raise criteria on the targeting, however, since their is an emotional/fear component, you can't if stepping up means he has to do something scary. You can only shift that emotional state by 1) continuing to not pressure or force and 2) continue to train anything because training with positive reinforcement builds a good association with you, and 3) continue to pair you with good things like treats. I would probably continue to clicker train, but I might play with just association training for the step up. Meaning that you just use food without asking for a learned behavior. If you present the target stick and he doesn't touch he has not earned a click, however, if you just say, I am going to lift my hand, and if you don't move away, i will feed you, you are building a strong association around you, your hand or arm lifting, making the choice of not leaving, etc. It is more classical conditioning rather than operant where there is a behavior/consequence. Does that make sense?
 

Skullie6687

Meeting neighbors
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Ohio
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Becky
Yes, it does make sense and is helpful! Thanks for being such a great resource on this topic
 
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