step up off shoulder

[Imogena]

So far so good. Edgar is stepping up from my shoulder most of the times. If he doesn't want to, I show him a clicker and then he steps up because he knows that clicker means reward (always). Without clicker I also reward him but not every time. Sometimes I praise him but I don't give him a treat.
I think Edgar needed to become aware that I can ask something from him outside the training sesion. When we are training he is focused on understanding what I'm asking him and he wants to cooperate. He is in the training mode. Outside training sesion he is relaxed, not concentrating on my requests. Now he knows that sometimes he has to concentrate outside training. I could compare it to a working dog. While working, the assisting dog is wearing special collar or harnes, so he goes to working mode. Outside working he wears normal collar so he knows, he can play. I think it was the same with Edgar. Training session means training state of mind. Outside training session means relaxed state of mind.

 

[Farlie]

Since Farlie is not a shoulder bird I can't comment about that but he does ride on the front of my shirt hanging on as tight as he can. To get him off all I do is walk to his cage and stand real close and he just steps off onto his cage, (99% of the time.), as easy as pie.
My point is, try bending down to his cage to see if he'll step off. Maybe even show him a treat to entice him to do so.

 

[Mockinbirdiva]

Edgar knows step up. He steps up for me almost automatically. Even when he goes somewhere he wants to be and I ask step up to take him from this place, he will. I think he even stopped thinking what I want and when he sees my hand close to him, he just steps up. Now (second day in the row) he steps up from my shoulder as well.

Yes, you are right. Thank you for making me aware. I somewhat knew this already but I think I chose not to remember this. You reminded me. Parrots are wild animals and even though I love Edgar with all my heart, I should remember not to trust him completely.

Yes, I saw this video. Scary.

You scared me a little, but it is a good (a mean positive) scare. Useful. Thank you.
One more thing: I would never smack Edgar for biting. Never. But now I can imagine that I could become nervous around him (if he started serious biting) and for sure he would feel it and became nervous as well. We would have vicious circle of nervousness. It would't do any good for either of us.
Thank you so much for reminding me few things and making me aware of possible dangers. I have a lot to think about. It will not be easy just to stop having Edgar on my shoulder (because I really enjoy it and Edgar as well) but I have to seriously consider this option.

It wasn't my intention to scare you but more to enlighten about the dangers of having a parrot on your shoulder. Is Edgar your first parrot? It's easy to follow what we see others do with their birds and it's especially unfortunate when sellers ( be it a pet store or breeder ) don't cover more information about the species of bird they are selling. ( dos, don'ts, diet, housing, etc.) Some people never have an incident while others learn such a painful lesson and in some cases it's the parrot that pays the price one way or another. I've never spent any time around a TAG so I don't know much about their behavior progression as they age or grow into adulthood. What I do know is most parrots do bite and it's often a matter of time before they do. There's so much to learn about living with them.
It's hard to redirect behavior patterns and the earlier you start the better. I would also suggest training Edgar to step up onto a perch. That's one regret I have with Henry as he is not willing to step on a perch when I need to transport him in a quick or necessary situation. When he matured at five years I was in for one super ugly season with a bird who couldn't tolerate my presence and was not only threatening me he did jump off his cage in a full attack. He just didn't want me to enter his space. I've had him since he was four or five months old. I could carry him everywhere on my arm those first years but I never did put him on my shoulder. Since that first whole event of the attack I've never picked him up on my arm again because I don't trust him. He's incredibly strong and shaking him off when he landed on my arm in the attack was scary and potentially harmful for both of us. Fortunately I didn't get bitten. Even though the intention is to get them off they can be injured in that process. The key is to avoid the bite and maintaining a good relationship with your bird.
Whenever he begins to climb up your arm to your shoulder you can stop him by having him step on to your other hand or arm before he gets to your shoulder. Work on having him step from one hand to the next a few times to distract him from climbing up. Keep him on your arm or hand more at waist level where you have more control. With repetition he should learn he isn't allowed to climb up. You can turn around, walk a couple of steps and take a left or right turn ( none to quickly) to keep him focused on staying where he is rather than climbing. Sessions should be short and next you could place him on his stand or table with a couple of foot toys or treat. Teach him to play independently so he doesn't become dependent on being with and on you all the time. Things in life happen where you may have to spend less time or be gone a few days. It's stressful for some birds when their routine is constant human contact and suddenly it changes. It's possible for some birds to start emotional plucking of their feathers when their companion ( you in this case) are unable to meet their needs they are accustomed to. It will take some time for you to establish a balance that works for Edgar and especially now while he's young. I tried to cover a lot of bases here... hope it helps and perhaps other members with greys can add what works for them.

 

[Kodigirl210]

@Imogena -. It sounds like Edgar is catching onto the program. If you let fear/doubt seep into your bond, Edgar will know immediately. Grey’s are very sensitive & they need absolute trust.


I let Sif feel my love/joy/faith & there is almost nothing she won’t let me do. Whether I hand her over to perch on a stranger’s hand or stepping off my shoulder.


Keep building your bond with special time for just you two so you can learn each other’s language. Trust is one of the biggest building blocks for making a bond with a Grey. Understanding your fid is the other. Try to always be positive around Edgar and I promise the reward will be great.


As to my shoulder, once I was sure that Sif could use it, I treated it as “just another perch” and therefore so does Sif. I don’t want her to think it’s a special place because she will definitely feel that she needs to be perched at that “special” spot a lot more than I want her to.


Finally advice is advice. It never hurts to hear it but only use what works for you, not for someone else.


Best of Luck to the 2-of you!

 

[Imogena]

It wasn't my intention to scare you but more to enlighten about the dangers of having a parrot on your shoulder. Is Edgar your first parrot?

I know that you didn't want to scare me. It was honest answer and I appreciate it. I didn't ask for perfect picture: a lot of pink flowers and sweets. I asked for advice which would help me to do the best for me and for Edgar. I needed different perspectives and I'm glad I got them. It really is much better to be aware od potential danger than happily blind and very sorry later. And yes, Edgar is my first parrot.

I would also suggest training Edgar to step up onto a perch.

Good idea, thank you.

Teach him to play independently so he doesn't become dependent on being with and on you all the time. Things in life happen where you may have to spend less time or be gone a few days.

He already is independent. He likes to be with me and likes our training sesions, but he likes his time for himself as well. He plays on his stand then (sometimes does acrobatics that make my heart stop), and now he started slowly to accept his climbing wall. He is still a little hesitant towards climbing wall, but definitly accepted two of the perches there. I don't interrupt him his time for himself. It's good he can take care of his playing time.

 

[Imogena]

@Imogena -. It sounds like Edgar is catching onto the program.

He is, remembering that set back is a part of learning process.. We have a set back today but here today just started so who knows, later may be better.

@Imogena
Keep building your bond with special time for just you two so you can learn each other’s language. Trust is one of the biggest building blocks for making a bond with a Grey. Understanding your fid is the other. Try to always be positive around Edgar and I promise the reward will be great.

Oh, yes. This is something I want to remember all the time. Love, trust and understanding, being positive. And also respect. Add training to this and and we have recipe for perfect relationship with a bird. Thinking about it... perfect relationship with husband as well (especially with training)

@Imogena
I let Sif feel my love/joy/faith & there is almost nothing she won’t let me do. Whether I hand her over to perch on a stranger’s hand or stepping off my shoulder.

It sounds like you have great relationship with Sif and she has a very gentle soul.

@Imogena
Finally advice is advice. It never hurts to hear it but only use what works for you, not for someone else.

Advice is very usefull if you want to get another perspective. Sometimes it is impossible to see all of the aspects and another opinion is neccesary. I think the key is to stay open minded and listen to what other people have to say. Than put together all the knowledge you got and make your own decision.

@Imogena
Best of Luck to the 2-of you!

Thank you very much

 

[Kodigirl210]

A very clever girl & a very clever birb! I’m sure you both will be fine

 

[Kodigirl210]

Here’s more reading on Height Dominance in African Grey’s. I agree with it bcuz I have never seen the dominance factor. It is a human concept placed on a bird society. We don’t understand the whys therefore we will use human terms/concepts to explain unwanted bird behavior. If a parrot has lashed out on a shoulder it was for a reason. Whether they sensed the person’s mistrust, were startled or transfer biting. Dominance does not enter into the equation but it’s an easy out for someone isn’t sure why their birb lashed out. I haven’t seen this behavior our Conure or CAG nor do I expect to.

Height Dominance

"HEIGHT DOMINANCE" is a term that has been around for ages. The idea is that a parrot on your shoulder is now at or above your eyes and therefore will try to dominate you. Well, it simply isn't true.

First of all, parrots don't live in dominance-related hierarchies. They live in pairs or family groups, which may or may not congregate in a larger social group in a roost tree or at a feeding site. While a nervous bird will be inclined to climb to the highest point it can, it isn't because it wants to dominate a situation - it simply is seeking safety. For a bird, up is the way to safety and therefore a good place to go to find comfort as well.

 

[Imogena]

For a bird, up is the way to safety and therefore a good place to go to find comfort as well.

And the bird who feels safe and comfortable is usually much calmer bird.
I don't think this thread is about high dominance though, more about safety of both human and the bird.
But with this high dominance, you know, this approach is still functioning in Poland among many experts. Some of the others argue with this point but they are significantly less. There is one expert with many years of experience and he strongly advocates for not allowing the bird to stay above eye level of human. I appreciate his long experience but I think he forgot that knowledge developes and it is a good idea to follow this development. It is like in every other science and aspect of life. We know more and more and we shouldn't always keep to the old ways. If I did everything like my grandmother did (because it worked for her just fine, so why not for me), I wouldn't be using washing mashine, telephone or the computer. And I would smack my daughter for disobedience, because this was the way of teaching children the respect. Fortunately now we know better.

 

[Kodigirl210]

LoL in this I believe that some of that is true, that isn’t directly about high dominance. Then come the why’s. If a bird is comfortable on my shoulder then why must I show them who’s boss by forcing them below it all the time? If I trust my bird & she responds correctly why must I only allow her there at certain times as a “privilege.”

In more of than less of the examples given, it was the owner’s/person’s inattention/inability to understand their bird/ bird’s body language - not the bird who caused the issue, yet it is the bird’s fault for being poorly trained & not understanding how they should behave or what their place is.

I will admit I haven’t had as many years behind me with Grey’s than others might but the truth is that Grey will not ride your shoulder without trust. If it is forced then yes you will have issues because you are trying to dominate the bird and bend it to your will and the bird will lash out unpredictability-just as you or I would if we were forced to do something.

Any time you pick up an animal-idc which kind it is, there is the potential to be bit. Accidents will happen. Nothing is perfect but we accept that every time we leave ourselves vulnerable to being bit. We can mitigate that potential for bad things to happen by teaching our fids, trusting in our bond & being aware in a loving way, not one driven by proving where a bird’s place should be.

And I totally agree, evolve or die. We’ve come a long way from yesteryear and a lot of those who hold opinions that are as unchanging as the sunrise are fading away.

 

[Mockinbirdiva]

Unwanted bird behavior is going to happen no matter how well you train, trust, or bond with it. They only do what comes naturally given a situation where a person does something unintentional or irresponsibly, which could be seemingly innocent on our part as we want to share a closeness with our birds, and then this happens. I can see why the birds in these videos bit their owners, but I don't think they really expected it. Our skin and flesh cut like butter with their beaks. I just want you to be careful and enjoy your birds without any incidents... if at all possible. Warning: You may want to turn your volume completely off because there are some very choice curse words said. And it's not just the biggies that can give a painful bite... the little ones can bite a sensitive area too given the opportunity. The rest of the budgie video is pretty cute so turn your volume back up to hear some budgie talk.

 

[Imogena]

I can see why the birds in these videos bit their owners, but I don't think they really expected it.

Could you please tell me what exactly caused the bird to bite his owner on these videos? If it is not a bother for you. I understand that on the video with cockatoos one of the birds got jealous that the lady payed attention to the other. But I don't know what the first man did and what the lady whose lips was bitten did.

Warning: You may want to turn your volume completely off because there are some very choice curse words said.

Oh, thank you, I'm ok with them. Frankly, I remember quite funny situation. I was attending English conversations. Our teacher was very nice, very polite and calm lady. And we had this lesson about curse words. So we got the list of those words and we were asking what each of them means. And the teacher was sitting behind her desk, very stiff with very straight face and was explaining like this: this is a man who knows how to use his hand to give himself pleasure.

Unwanted bird behavior is going to happen no matter how well you train, trust, or bond with it.

On the more serious note, yes, the bird is still an animal. Everything may happen. Dogs sometimes bite their owners, cats go crazy and scratch their owners. They are animals, they have instincts, and their impulse control sometimes can stop working for a while. I don't think we can predict everything and avoid everything. Even I sometimes have a bad mood and lash out on everyone without any visible reason. Fortunately I don't bite. But before I stop myself and think about telling my family: today I'm in bad shape, please, give me some space, I will say something I shouldn't. Edgar is a very smart bird, and he has really good personality. But I wouldn't expect him to tell me: you know, todady I'm somewhat nervous, hormones probably, so please avoid my beak. He doesn't talk after all

 

[Kodigirl210]

I stink at the quote thing but basically “I can see why the birds in these videos bit....” my biggest point was really that people have expectations & rarely do they meet up with reality.

No one who has an ounce of sense would ever believe that their companion was 100%, will always do what I ask, never going to have an accident, trained. Their perception led them to not pay attention to truly what was going on with the situation & their bird.


We train, we trust and we stay aware. That’s all I’m saying. Also, people are fascinated by train wrecks. People don’t go to YouTube to see videos of people cruising around with a bird on their shoulder & nothing other than that going on.


Consider the source of the vids & also know that for every bad bite situation, there are a thousand more that never happened bcuz they had parronts not people more bent on showing off & showing their “fantastic” control over their poor bird.


Please don’t ever think I dismiss anyone’s concerns. That’s part of being a responsible owner-to be open minded & constantly learning. Bonds are built on trust & understanding. Bonds get deeper by doing things that bring you closer together. If I didn’t want an interactive one I could have gotten a toucan lol

 

[Imogena]

LoL in this I believe that some of that is true, that isn’t directly about high dominance. Then come the why’s. If a bird is comfortable on my shoulder then why must I show them who’s boss by forcing them below it all the time? If I trust my bird & she responds correctly why must I only allow her there at certain times as a “privilege.”

I also do not think about shoulder as a privilege. Maybe a privilege for me, but not for the bird. But I don't think it is about showing the bird who is the boss either. I didn't understand it like this. I understand that it is about potential danger and beeing prepared. Besides in my case Edgar is the boss.
I'm not even sure if birds understand the idea of bossing and obediency. They understand cooperation, at least this is what I read and this is my approach to Edgar. I think the best approach is: do what you think is the best, but be aware of potential danger. Knowing all of this I can make conscious decision about Edgar on my shoulder.



.

 

[Kodigirl210]

@Imogena - Actually Edgar might talk to you and tell you he’s unhappy. It’s just understanding the cues.

In Greys:
Dialed down pupils (pinning) mean I don’t like something or someone.
All the feathers fluffled means something is making me uncomfortable or afraid
Hissing I’m really not in the mood to be touched or messed with
Turning their back on you - same in anyone’s language - leave me alone.
There are plenty of resources that go into more details about body language. I’m sure you’ll be able to find them and read up

 

[Kodigirl210]

LoL - I’ve been cruising the boards for a few months - so I’ve read it in many different ways & my responses are usually conglomeration not based on a single post. It’s what I’ve said consistently in response that matters which is just a different iteration of what you said. “We train, we trust, we stay aware.”

 

[Fuzzy]

So far so good. Edgar is stepping up from my shoulder most of the times. If he doesn't want to, I show him a clicker and then he steps up because he knows that clicker means reward (always). Without clicker I also reward him but not every time. Sometimes I praise him but I don't give him a treat.
I think Edgar needed to become aware that I can ask something from him outside the training sesion. When we are training he is focused on understanding what I'm asking him and he wants to cooperate. He is in the training mode. Outside training sesion he is relaxed, not concentrating on my requests. Now he knows that sometimes he has to concentrate outside training. I could compare it to a working dog. While working, the assisting dog is wearing special collar or harnes, so he goes to working mode. Outside working he wears normal collar so he knows, he can play. I think it was the same with Edgar. Training session means training state of mind. Outside training session means relaxed state of mind.

Remember you are training a parrot (or any animal) with every interaction you make with him whether during "a training session" or not.

 

[Imogena]

Remember you are training a parrot (or any animal) with every interaction you make with him whether during "a training session" or not.

Oh, yes, you are right. Good to remember.