sorry but more questions

[melissasparrots]

I think it varies by species. I know Nancy Speed and her husband have documented their golden conures feeding at night with next box cameras. As you mentioned with the amazon studies, I'm much more laid back when feeding amazons. Their metabolism is slower and sometimes I think I tend to over feed them. If I take signals from the birds, I feel like I'm being a lazy bum with how often my amazons need/want to eat compared to the smaller species I've raised. I will often check my amazons mid morning while in the care of their parents and its not uncommon to see empty crops. So, for this species I'm not horribly concerned about emptying times. Once they are past the first few critical weeks, I sort of feed them whenever they seem to need feeding rather than go by a schedule.

When I used to breed smaller species it was a different thing. Much quicker metabolisms, much more vocal for food. If I followed the signals the birds sent out, they needed and wanted to be fed frequently. When I used to check my parrotlets in the nest, it was fairly rare to find one with an empty crop no matter what time of day I checked unless they were feeding a large clutch. In which case if I found the youngest empty more than once it was my signal to pull some of the older ones for hand-feeding because generally the youngest would be much further behind developmentally if I didn't. Also, when feeding small species from an early stage of development such as the day one quakers I used to do, you have to assume you are starting out from behind. I used to envision it as a race when feeding day one quakers. I have 33 days to get as much weight on them as a parent fed chick. Being able to match parent fed weights when feeding day one chicks is a matter of getting as many calories in them as young as possible. If I start out behind, I will never catch up. The chick might look healthy, act healthy and have nice feathers. But bone structure will be just a little finer and adult weight a little lower than if I get my butt up and do those late night feeds. I also suspect that macaws might need feeding more often and probably get it in the wild. I know I heard something about Dr. Speer saying something about that from a conference. It was second hand information though. So I think it really depends on the size of the bird. If I have to raise a baby amazon from early, I'm up at all hours until they are about 7-10 days old, then I start sleeping at night but still making sure they get a lot to eat during the day. At about day 28 they seem to have a shift in metabolism and you can really tell they'd rather sleep than eat. It doesn't surprise me in the least with that species if the parents are less attentive after the first couple weeks. Going by what I see in smaller species, the parents sit a lot tighter on the nest and feed the chicks often during the day and quite possibly at night.

 

[CheekyBeaks]

I think it varies by species. I know Nancy Speed and her husband have documented their golden conures feeding at night with next box cameras. As you mentioned with the amazon studies, I'm much more laid back when feeding amazons. Their metabolism is slower and sometimes I think I tend to over feed them. If I take signals from the birds, I feel like I'm being a lazy bum with how often my amazons need/want to eat compared to the smaller species I've raised. I will often check my amazons mid morning while in the care of their parents and its not uncommon to see empty crops. So, for this species I'm not horribly concerned about emptying times. Once they are past the first few critical weeks, I sort of feed them whenever they seem to need feeding rather than go by a schedule.

When I used to breed smaller species it was a different thing. Much quicker metabolisms, much more vocal for food. If I followed the signals the birds sent out, they needed and wanted to be fed frequently. When I used to check my parrotlets in the nest, it was fairly rare to find one with an empty crop no matter what time of day I checked unless they were feeding a large clutch. In which case if I found the youngest empty more than once it was my signal to pull some of the older ones for hand-feeding because generally the youngest would be much further behind developmentally if I didn't. Also, when feeding small species from an early stage of development such as the day one quakers I used to do, you have to assume you are starting out from behind. I used to envision it as a race when feeding day one quakers. I have 33 days to get as much weight on them as a parent fed chick. Being able to match parent fed weights when feeding day one chicks is a matter of getting as many calories in them as young as possible. If I start out behind, I will never catch up. The chick might look healthy, act healthy and have nice feathers. But bone structure will be just a little finer and adult weight a little lower than if I get my butt up and do those late night feeds. I also suspect that macaws might need feeding more often and probably get it in the wild. I know I heard something about Dr. Speer saying something about that from a conference. It was second hand information though. So I think it really depends on the size of the bird. If I have to raise a baby amazon from early, I'm up at all hours until they are about 7-10 days old, then I start sleeping at night but still making sure they get a lot to eat during the day. At about day 28 they seem to have a shift in metabolism and you can really tell they'd rather sleep than eat. It doesn't surprise me in the least with that species if the parents are less attentive after the first couple weeks. Going by what I see in smaller species, the parents sit a lot tighter on the nest and feed the chicks often during the day and quite possibly at night.

I find my smaller species of birds do feed their chicks at night too, I often hear them feeding the babies in the middle of the night greencheeks and rainbows are particularly vocal when being fed by mum and dad.

 

[pinkharley]

everyone and videos are saying they are vocal skylar is not at all!!!! I now vary the feedings sometimes 3-5 hours depending on him and how much he ate the feeding before he can eat as little as 3 cc to 6 cc and if he is sleeping at 4 hours I will leave him for a bit longer if he ate a lot before I have been doing late feedings say between 10-11 pm and then up again at 5-6 he is gaining a gram a day ......I have millet in the brooder but he seems to not leave his teddy much even when he is awake .........but as he is only just over 3 weeks......

 

[pinkharley]

@melissasparrots so I should pull the conures when oldest is 3 weeks (as that is when I want to pull them) or do I pull them 1 at a time as each turns 3 weeks? I have heard both what do you do?

 

[LaSelva]

Thanks, I suspected nighttime regurgitation as a possibility but couldn't be sure. Want to post some of what I was referring to because I think it's interesting...

When it comes to the Amazons, according to Dr. Noel Snyder, the number of feedings during daylight hours, whether 2 for the species listed, or 4-5 for the West Indies Amazons, varies with the nutritional content of the food available in their habitat. In brief, less nutritional value per feeding means more feedings to compensate. He also discusses midday temperature (related to elevation of habitat) and it’s effects on foraging stress as well as it’s effects on birds’ energy needs as related factors also contributing to how many times baby’s are fed per day.

In his book, “Psittaculture: The Breeding, Rearing & Management of Parrots,” Loro Parque curator and breeder Tony Silva remarks:

(These are quotes taken from a section on hand rearing)

“I feel that the gut should be given a rest and that no food should be offered from about 2300 to 0600 hours, except when the chick weighs under 2g, when it would benefit from the extra nourishment the first few nights; fortunately such species are few in number.”

“Over the years I have observed parrots in the wild in many countries occasionally spending months at a time in the field and this includes the season in which the parrots were breeding…(here he goes on a bit about how he removed -and returned- chicks from nests and gathered information). To date I have yet to record any parrot that forages after sunset or which leaves for feeding grounds before sunrise. (he makes a point to exclude crepuscular species unavailable in aviculture). “

“As a result of their feeding only when there is light, chicks tend to have empty crops during the night. Only twice have I found chicks that had obviously been fed during the night (a Yellow-winged Amazon in the Chaco province of Argentina and the other a Sulphur crested Cockatoo in Victoria, Australia); both circumstances involved single chick clutches. Undoubtedly when the other eggs hatched and food had to be divided into many mouths, the night feeding would not have been possible, for the parents are able to hold only so much food in their crop and this must be used to both nourish their progeny and maintain their own bodily functions. “

“Experiments that I conducted on Amazona, Aratinga, and Cacatua during a six month period showed that there was no difference in growth of chicks fed throughout the night and those that were not. “

He goes on to talk about how his number of feedings will change, for example, as chicks grow and the crop is able to hold more food, at what stage he’s down to two feedings/day, and eventually onto solid food, etc.

 

[pinkharley]

New question he is now almost 4 weeks what should he be doing ...... He is scared of toys .... millet not interested in scared of it to

 

[CheekyBeaks]

With my little Greencheeks I find they don't start nibbling food until about 5 weeks of age. And as for toys I really dont intrduce them until they are in their weaning cage at around fledging time. It is important not to rush or overwhelm babies, they really need to be eating and sleeping until they are near fledgling age then you can start introducing more.

I also wouldn't be using millet as a first food, try leaving a shallow dish of pellets out first as it doesn't spoil easily then and some very finely chopped veggies when you notice the baby starting to nibble.

 

[pinkharley]

@CheekyBeaks and maybe you can answer my last question too so because the babies are born at different times I have heard of both of these
pull all babies when oldest is 3 weeks
pull babies 1 at a time as they hit 3 weeks
as mama had them over a 12 day span and I really want to leave with mama till 3 weeks so if I pulled all when oldest is 3 week youngest could be 1 week

 

[CheekyBeaks]

@CheekyBeaks and maybe you can answer my last question too so because the babies are born at different times I have heard of both of these
pull all babies when oldest is 3 weeks
pull babies 1 at a time as they hit 3 weeks
as mama had them over a 12 day span and I really want to leave with mama till 3 weeks so if I pulled all when oldest is 3 week youngest could be 1 week

Yes you can pull the babies one by one, I would recommend that you leave at least the two youngest together as some parents will reject babies when only one is left behind.

 

[melissasparrots]

David, I think in some cases more information is needed in terms of how the conclusions were reached by these researchers. What age were the chicks he was pulling from the nest in the wild and collecting data from? My parent amazons sit pretty tight with babies during the first 3-4 weeks. Once they start getting more feathers, they become more relaxed and I can easily see wild amazons going out and foraging for most of the day only to give them a big crop full a couple times a day. I don't see that happening with tiny babies though. And as you said, I'm seeing behaviors at about 70-78 degrees indoors. So, if its 90+ outside in the wild, the parents might not sit so tight. However, I have a slightly hard time seeing the females taking off for most of the day with very young chicks in the nest. And as was pointed out by the researchers, number of times fed depends on the environment and what is being fed. So again, it may be that with what we have available in terms of hand-feeding formulas, our captive chicks just need more feedings than a wild bird in order to get the same growth.

I agree that chicks need to give their digestive system a rest. Which is why I say let them empty at night. However, I also think it depends on the species in terms of how quick their metabolism is and how adequate our formula is when deciding to let them empty during the day. Again, I'd want to know Mr. Silva's daily weight gains for species being given the very same formula in the same environment and fed at night or not and allowed to empty between feedings or not. As I already mentioned, many people will end up with good sized babies with the same average weaning weight or peak weight regardless if fed at night or not. However, in my experience, if fed at night and not forced to empty between all feeds during the day, chicks will hit their peak weights a little sooner, will often be a little heavier at weaning and just visually as adults will seem a little more sturdy in bone structure. Also, I think it varies by species. I think I could very easily get away with feeding my amazons less. However, I would be seeing some differences if I fed less often with my smaller species. In years past where I tried different feeding schedules, chicks just did not gain as fast, they had more stress bars, color wasn't as vibrant, they took longer to wean, cried more. I feel okay about it when my peak weights and weaning weights are the same as parent fed. I feel even better about it if daily weight gains are similar to parent fed.

A hand-fed from day one chick will often have a VERY different growth curve if not fed at night or frequently enough during the day compared to a bird that was parent fed or hand-fed during the night and more often during the day. Again, I try to use parent fed data as my reference point. Parent fed chicks will tend to have a very fast weight gain in the beginning and then flatten out toward the end. Sometimes parent fed birds will even take a little longer to reach their peak weight than hand-feds but the growth curve is plateaued or nearly level for much longer. A baby hand-fed from day one, not fed at night and allowed to empty between meals will slowly increase during the first 10 days of life, then around 10-14 days have a very steep weight gain right up until they hit their peak weight and then they will very quickly start going into loss mode. Basically, if you look at the data it looks like they are struggling to make up for lost time. At least that's how I interpret it. Parent feds and chicks that hit their peak a little earlier will maintain it longer, will often lose it slower and many times won't lose as much as those not fed through the night and made to empty every time between feedings. I suppose it comes down to what that breeder finds acceptable. Also, I know with hyacinths, I've talked to a few breeders that claim if they let the bird empty between feedings during the day, it won't hit as high of a peak weight. For a species prone to stunting, thats a little alarming. However, they also have to balance it with what works for them. Many hyacinths in captivity will have slow crop problems and so breeders will go to making them empty between meals. Which means fewer calories in. They are likely to get a chick that survives and is salable, but is smaller or at least quite a bit lighter. For a slow metabolism amazon, it probably won't make much of a difference.

 

[melissasparrots]

@CheekyBeaks and maybe you can answer my last question too so because the babies are born at different times I have heard of both of these
pull all babies when oldest is 3 weeks
pull babies 1 at a time as they hit 3 weeks
as mama had them over a 12 day span and I really want to leave with mama till 3 weeks so if I pulled all when oldest is 3 week youngest could be 1 week

I've done it many different ways. Most of the time, if there are more than 5 chicks in the nest, I'll pull them 2-3 at a time. As the first chick hits 21 days, I'll pull the oldest two. As the 3rd chick hits 21 days I will pull that one. In order to provide them with a snuggle buddy and to allow them to keep each other warm, I try not to pull just one and have it by itself in the brooder. Nor do I like to just leave one chick in the box with the parents at any one time if I can avoid it. So I'll pull two the first time and then sometimes I'll pull 2-3 the last time. Or after the first two come out, I'll pull one at a time until I get to the last two and they both come out at the same time.

If there are only 2-3 chicks in the nest, then i'd likely pull them all at once. When the oldest hits 21 days, they all come out.

 

[LaSelva]

melissasparrots, I'm not a breeder so I have no experience to compare with yours. But one thing I like to do is post snippets of books I've read - kind of like a preview. Reason being is that if someone is interested in the topic they have a source for more complete information. And studies that books reference contain even more detail for the conclusions that are summarized in "layman's terms." So, I'm sure that in many cases there is more information out there. And not only from the sources I've mentioned so far but also from The Macaw Project in Peru, for example. They have video cameras monitoring their nest boxes and have learned alot from observing hundreds of hours of footage. Look them up. Their website (research is headed by Dr. Don Brightsmith) isn't short on scientific articles.

Edit: I e-mailed Dr. Brightsmith with the question of night feedings and he told me that Scarlet macaws do but probably more so when the chicks are young. They are still compiling data on it.

And thanks for your post, interesting stuff, as there are obviously alot of variables involved in this topic.