Seeds vs. Pellets...

[Jas]

I'm sure most members on here are a little offended that you imply to us as 'lazy'! In fact when regards to my birds no, two full days of cleaning them out, a biweekly trip into town to get fresh foods (that's an hour long round trip on the bus), then an hour prep time to wash, store and freeze, an hour in the morning to prep fresh chop and change water, days prepping sprouts, days prepping pulses, 4-6 hours of out of cage time. So for someone who feeds pellets explain how I'm lazy or how I don't like too much work? Because, if I didn't like too much work wouldn't I just seeds in their bowl?

In fact the fresh food we all feed our birds is not fresh and is not so beneficial as what you claim, unless it's from your own garden then it's at least a few days old, already losing nutrients. Therefore a carrot that you feed one day will be even more degraded the next, which now has the potential to cause vitamin deficiencies.

So are the companies who make pet food like dog, cat, fish etc all trying to poison are pets too? Just like dog food companies Some Pellet companies are better than others. Just like some fresh foods are better than others.

Majority of us do a varied diet, it's not your way or way or no way!

If you swear by your diet that you feed why don't you give us an breakdown of it?

 

[TikiMyn]

Actually in the Netherlands I know a good amount of breeders noticed better results with pellets instead of seed/veg.
I Don’t feed pellets exclusivly either, heck sometimes my fids don’t eat them for a month only to devour them the next. They get chop, commercial seed in foraging areas, home Mixed seed mix, sprouted seeds/legumes/grains, additional fresh food I have aroud, wild grasses, treats like star anise and dried berries, berries from my garden, herbs, wild flowers, small bits of healthy food I have and pellets. I have Said before that I would love to feed them all the grasses, bark, leaves, clay etc they would eat in the wild, but that is not possible at this point. I am happy they eat their pellets to cover up for the thins they don’t get in the other stuff. They eat a pretty big variety of veggies now thankfully, didn’t use to, but still refuse most leafy greens.

 

[finchly]

I'm sure most members on here are a little offended that you imply to us as 'lazy'! I

He is trying to be as offensive as possible. Yet, he refuses to cite scientific studies or tell us how he feeds his own flock.

Fortunately my own sense of self worth is not dented by some idiot on the Internet. I believe that he has no evidence and apparently no personal experience from feeding pellet food; he just wants to argue. Sad.

 

[TikiMyn]

Agreed, I would love to see actual research but that doesn’t happen. I an Reading a book about Avian medicine at the moment and there are plenty of references to scientific studies by, yes, pellet manufactures:

 

[Jas]

Not sure about the USA but in Europe, definitely the UK we have strict laws about what companies can claim. Which is why ads are taken done or actual products and the company gets sued.

Bird feed companies aren't allowed to lie about their product or make false claims. Also most pellet companies like lafebers have accredited avain vets with actual evidence, controlled environment and they know what to look for as they have the right equipment.

It would be interesting to see the difference between a bird fed no pellets and a bird fed with pellets in addition. By that I mean actual blood work to see the vitamin and mineral levels.

 

[painesgrey]

He is trying to be as offensive as possible. Yet, he refuses to cite scientific studies or tell us how he feeds his own flock.

Fortunately my own sense of self worth is not dented by some idiot on the Internet. I believe that he has no evidence and apparently no personal experience from feeding pellet food; he just wants to argue. Sad.

This kind of attitude is rampant in the health/nutrition and pet owner communities - it goes along the same line as anti-vaxxers and the like. They formulate their arguments around the "appeal to nature" fallacy, and only support (and, even then, rarely cite) any science that backs their ideology. Any study/proof that is counter to their belief is fundamentally flawed, in their view, for any number of reasons - typically due to some perceived bias. No amount of quoting studies, peer-reviewed research, or actualscience will make them believe otherwise because it's beyond science at this point - they believe what they do so firmly in their core that it's less about "truth" and more about "faith".

This is why I've utilized the ignore feature on the forums. I try not to engage these types of people frequently, because it usually just ends with frustration for everyone involved.

However, I think it's important on forums like this one, since the questions here so often pop up on Google searches, to make sure that blusterous ideologies about what should be are properly countered with reasoned arguments of what is known to be true. I feel it's our responsibility to present factual information to people who are asking questions, and that's why I haven't thrown up my arms and just left. Because the people who don't know deserve better than that.

If anyone wants a good read, check out the skeptvet.

 

[Matto]

African Queen Aviaries
African Queen Aviaries

These are also anecdotal and not conclusive, but just to offer a counter to what you posted.

 

[Known Space]

You are trying to force him to eat an unnatural item.
Never going to be easy.
Only birds weaned off to this so called food, like the manufactured so called food.

It makes laugh! When you see how readily birds take to Live Foods (sprouts).
And I come online reading about the amount of trouble people have trying to force them to eat, a dry food, that must be just about the most boring food item being offered.
Are birds smarter than their owners?

What type of bird are you looking after?

Oh Look my siggy is Sophie.
Her diet is sprout based and includes seed, fruit and veg. And Nuts.
You want to see what she was like on the fabricated diet, when I first got her.
Not to mention the behavior issues birds suffer from on these processed foods.

Appeal to nature is a widely made logical fallacy and you're making claims with low external validity.

Yes, birds do not eat pellets in the wild. Nor do they eat most of the fresh produce we offer them here, cultivated for human consumption in a completely different part of the world. THAT IS FINE. What matters to the body aren't foods, but nutrients that are eaten, and whether they are consumed. Pellets are all of these things, but it may take effort to get them to eat it. Their refusal to do so, however, is not an argument against them. Just see what happens when you offer a McDonald's or broccoli to a child. Would you argue that McDonald's is better than broccoli because children like one but not the other? These are still wild animals with instincts for a wild environment. So of course, they won't be inherently inclined to eat formulated captive food. That is takes effort to convert them to pellets, however, is not an indictment of pellets. We choose to make these animals are pets, therefore we are responsible for making sure that they eat their proper diets.

And like I mentioned before: low external validity. You cannot compare the diets of wild birds to captive ones, because wild parrots have a wildly different lifestyle from captive ones. Just because one is correct for wild parrots, doesn't mean it's correct for the captive parrot. We ripped these birds out of their wild habitat, trying to acclimate them to a completely different one. So it's kind of silly to assume that this change of environment could not also affect their dietary needs. Much like how an Olympic swimmer won't have the same nutritional needs as someone working a sedetary deskjob.

 

[Jaen]

Scientific statements are subject to very stringent requirements. Results of studies have to be independently verified by a different party before they are accepted. There is always the possibility that conclusions reached by the most stringent science are incorrect, in fact that has happened many times in history; as more information becomes available or more tools become available to look at results revised conclusions can be drawn. The whole point of science is not that it produces a 100% error free conclusion but rather that it produces a conclusion that goes through a lot of unbiased verification and healthy skepticism before it is accepted.

This is the reason why statements and conclusions made after going through the scientific process are deemed as trustworthy, especially when viewed in comparison to statements made by persons that do not practice a standardized and objective vetting process but instead rely strictly on their own subjective experience. Everyone can interpret a situation their own way and without a standardized method you can have widely different interpretations of the same results. This is readily demonstrated in some of the anecdotes provided previously:

******* ******
My bird's behavior is great. He gets wet food and sprouts in the morning and evening. He eats about 1/4-1/3 C TOPS with a small amount of seed mix and a nut (1/8th seed mix). He sleeps 12 hours. The sleep was the game changer on his behavior. He's not testy with 9-12 hrs sleep. He does not pluck.

This person states that the "game changer" was due to letting the bird more sleep. Also nowhere did this person state that they stopped feeding pellets, infact they clearly state they are feeding "C TOPS" and yet this anecdote quoted as evidence that pellets are bad for birds.

****** ******
I was giving a couple pellets initially (Harrison’s Lifetime) to our plucker when he rejoined us. However I noticed when I completely removed them he plucked less. Also he gets grumpy when fed cooked food (quinoa, brown rice, spelt pasta) so I cut that out and since mostly raw veggies and sprouts he’s hardly picking and feathering in. Fingers crossed he continues to let his feathers be.

This person believes pellets to be the culprit in feather plucking behavior. When they stopped feeding pellets they believe the behavior improved. Here are the issues with this: 1) how did they measure the amount of plucking? Was it quantitative or just subjective? If it was subjective, the problem of confirmation bias (I believe this is the cause so im inclined to believe my corrective actions helped regardless of actual reality) comes into play. 2)Assuming the feather plucking did decrease, did this person exhaustively take into account all the other factors in the situation that may have influence? How do we know it was 100% the pellets and not something else that changed in that time period? A scientific study would enforce strict controls to make sure everything else stays the same. To clarify, science would not say this statement is incorrect, science would say there isn't sufficient evidence in this case to say one thing or another.

Hi Clive. My girl was never a plucker, but I am a stay at home worker, and she has me in sight 80% of the time. She is kept strictly indoors but is flighted and has the freedom to fly around the house when I can watch her.

As to diet, she is on fresh sprouts, quinoa, veggies, a bit of fruit, nuts, and a few pellets. I have to say that sprouts have made the biggest difference in her feather quality. When I saw her in the pet store, she suffered from Mojo Molt. This continued for 2 years after she came home with me, even though I gave her a wider variety of fresh foods, 0 pellets, and daily showers. By mojo molt, I mean her neck was nearly bare for 4 months out of the year! All of her blood work was fine.

I started to wonder if somehow she was missing something in her diet, and I finally bit the bullet and learned to sprout. I also added in some natural pellets. She now is in her 3rd year without a mojo molt! I really do swear by sprouting

This person completely cut out pellets from the diet ("...variety of fresh foods, 0 pellets, and daily showers.") and yet the problem continued. It then stands to reason then that feeding pellets was not the only cause (if a cause at all) to the "mojo molt" issue. Yet you quote this as evidence that a pelleted diet is causing issues. Surely you can see how your conclusion here is subjective? If science were applied to this scenario, as in the previous case above, there would be a study with stringent requirements controlling all other factors to determine the cause.

Again, it's not about whether or not you have a fancy science degree but about the methodology of ruthlessly vetting a statement or conclusion until it cannot be refuted based on available knowledge. Then we can take this statement and recognize it as being the closet thing to "fact" based on what we know.

 

[AviMom]

I must have alien birds. My guys took to chop fairly quickly, have just started feeding pellets and they love them. Eggs, they hate, sprouts, they hate. I guess all birds are different, and if you have more than one bird caged together, if one eats it, they all eat it, if one won't eat it, none eat it....flock mentality.
Keep trying!!

 

[hrafn]

It took me a loooong time (ten years) to convince Kraz that pellets aren't an evil, poisonous concoction made with the sole intent of murdering him, but it was really down to just finding one he liked. Now he's on Zupreem naturals and pounds them down like cake.

We're still working on fruits and veg, but he'll sometimes eat finely chopped carrots and broccoli.

Seed junkies can be a pain in the butt when it comes to offering them new things, but time and patience is key. Never give up!