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Seeds vs. Pellets...

clawnz

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This is a fallacy. Natural does not always make something better, and unnatural things are not always worse than their natural counterparts.

What we want for our birds is often vastly different from what Nature wants from our birds. Birds in the wild eat diets higher in calories and fat because they are far, far more active than their captive cousins. Not only this, but wild birds are nesting, breeding, and foraging for food - all of which put a strain on their bodies that are not always conducive to a long lifespan.

So if you want your bird to live a fraction of its potential captive lifespan in the name of feeding it what you think is "natural", then a seed and fresh food-only diet will probably work for you. However, be prepared for ridiculous vet bills and a lot of misery down the line when your bird is suffering from liver failure and other diseases associated with long-term nutritional deficiencies.

Just my two cents.
Fallacy? Rubbish!!!!!!
Where you get your facts from?
Actually if you want to shorten your birds life Feed them pellets.
This is far more truthful than your false claim, and scare mongering.
 

clawnz

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You're citing examples of things but not providing sources for any of that information.



What issues?

Birds in the wild manage very well on real foods. You may not be able to figure that out!
And lets not talk about the fact that they have to be opertunists.
Damn they can only get certain foods for a few weeks when in season.
Detoxing a bird can be a long battle, once fabricated foods have been removed from the diet.
Note: Vit A that cannot be eliminated from the body, so once over dosed (Pellets) Yes they can cause this.



What?

Try feeding dry foods. Pellets.
Yes they do cause kidney issues, as not all birds understand they now need to drink more water.


Like what, specifically?

Colour, sugar, salt, peanuts.
Suspect aditives like menadione (Used is a good number of Pellets.
The lies that Harrisons is organic.
Manufactured B12s is mostly NOT any use to a bird.
Only natural sources are any real good.
Try reading up on that!


From here:
Q: I have heard that processed foods cause kidney disease in birds. Is this true?
A: There are many misconceptions about this issue in birds. Tom Roudybush participated in a study at UC Davis in 2000/2001 in which normal grey cockatiels were fed diets with up to 70% protein for one year. No clinical signs of kidney disease were seen. The kidneys were examined microscopically at the end of the experiment and no significant abnormalities were found. Toxic levels of Calcium and Vitamin D3 may cause kidney damage, and kidney problems may be an inherited defect being bred into lines of color mutation birds. Until more information is available in psittacines, Roudybush, Inc. advises bird owners and breeders to exercise common sense and feed their birds diets that lie within safe ranges (safe from both deficiency and toxicity) based on research performed in any avian species studied so far, including poultry. Don’t feed your birds a deficient diet in order to protect the few birds that might have an underlying kidney malfunction.

You want to quote Roudybush Har Har Really?
Come on. Please.
Was that a joke?
You do know they lied so many times about what they did feeding pellets for 27yrs?
And it was never as they claimed a total diet.
But hey! You believe what you like, sad if you have any birds, and incapable of understanding, there is not one independent review of any pellet.
All bought and paid for by the manufactured.
Designed to suck people, ignorant enough to swallow their bulldookey.

Unless you have a scientific study that links pelleted diets directly with kidney issues, birds that suffer from kidney disease while on a pelleted diet could easily have a genetic predisposition to the disease. That doesn't mean that the diet is a direct cause of it.



Where are you getting this information? B12 is readily synthesized and fortified into foods for both parrots and humans alike. Do you have some source that proves synthesized b12 is inferior?

It is a fact. try doing your own research.
B12 may not even be a necessity for birds on real foods anyway, as they can produce in the gut.

Anyone can say anything on the internet. Unless you provide sources to back up your claims, it's all just hot air in my opinion.

Yes I see that and agree with you. I just read your spiel.
I have some very interesting reading for you.
Where even a rep for a Famous pellet manufacture admitted facts, about their products.
Collected so many reports from people who removed pellets from their birds diets and see a vast improvement in behavior and condition.

Did you actually look at the pic of Sophie?
I doubt it. But I can show you many before and after photos. I guess that would be pointless, though.
 

painesgrey

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Information on B12 and why natural is far better for you and your birds.
And WOW!
You can get this from real foods.
But not with any pellets on the market.

Vitamin B12 - Cyanocobalamin Versus Methylcobalamin


Did you even read the article you linked??

Please note that cyanocobalamin is the form of B12 most used in supplements because it’s the cheapest and while we've presented methylcobalamin as the superior form both are excellent at providing nutritionally valuable quantities of Vitamin B12 to the body.

So while synthesized b12 may be considered inferior to it's natural counterpart, it is by no means a "waste of time" and is a perfectly viable alternative source of the vitamin.

But here is some reading for you!

From this article - Are Natural Diets Nutritional?:
This brings us to the most important point of all. Just because they are doing it “naturally” does not make it good. There are populations of birds and animals in habitats all over the world that survive and reproduce on grossly deficient diets. All a pair of living things has to do in order to maintain a population is survive long enough to produce two offspring that, in turn, survive long enough to reproduce. Living a long, healthy life has nothing to do with this.
A very interesting article about how even wild birds will flock to nutritionally incomplete sources of food.



 

BirdManDan

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Offer pellets different ways: crushed, mostened with water or apple juice. If you wet them use very warm water, for some reason they like warm food.

Try a different brand; TOPS is a favorite around here.

Mix in something yummy like hard boiled egg or nutriberries.

Do the same with veggies. Offer them differently - on a skewer, or the opposite chopped (and put a spoonful of pellets in there). Mixed or separate.


I love the TOP's cold pressed organic pellets and I mix it in their chop and birdie bread.

If you are trying to convert you birds to a pellet diet supplemented daily with a chop of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, there is a good conversion guide and another guide you can download for free in a PDF format. They are for one brand of pellets but the same can be done with whatever pellets you decide to go with. As I said before I love TOPs. The pellets are softer than most, crumble easily and can be eaten by most parrots from small to large.

Pellet-Useage-Report-.pdf


pelletconversionguide.pdf
 

finchly

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Agreed that many people think that they are doing right by their birds while caring for them very poorly. I don't feel like pellets are an "end all" answer here at all, but could indeed be used as part of a healthy diet.
I completely, wholeheartedly agree -- and this is exactly why pellet food was invented! It is very hard to provide a complete diet via fresh foods. We don't have access, or we purchase what's on sale, or it's out of season. Our bird doesn't like a certain color (say yellow/orange) so he refuses it. Etc etc. We work and don't have time to oversee lit 100%.

These are all reasons nutrition can fall short even with the best of intentions. By providing as much fresh food as possible with a pellet food we are providing more complete nutrition.

I have a friend who thinks she's taking better care of her parrots than 99% of the population, yet her bird's diet includes junk food, lots of cheerios, and soft drinks. I am not sure if pellets are included; I see lots of seed. Just sayin'.
 

clawnz

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I completely, wholeheartedly agree -- and this is exactly why pellet food was invented.


Har Har this is great comment.
Rubbish they were invented to take your money.
To help lazy people who cannot be bothered to feed real foods.
 

clawnz

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I love the TOP's cold pressed organic pellets and I mix it in their chop and birdie bread.

If you are trying to convert you birds to a pellet diet supplemented daily with a chop of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, there is a good conversion guide and another guide you can download for free in a PDF format. They are for one brand of pellets but the same can be done with whatever pellets you decide to go with. As I said before I love TOPs. The pellets are softer than most, crumble easily and can be eaten by most parrots from small to large.

Pellet-Useage-Report-.pdf

pelletconversionguide.pdf

Tops is the only real food pellet.
There is a huge difference to most of those ground up mush type.
 

clawnz

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Did you even read the article you linked??



So while synthesized b12 may be considered inferior to it's natural counterpart, it is by no means a "waste of time" and is a perfectly viable alternative source of the vitamin.

But here is some reading for you!

From this article - Are Natural Diets Nutritional?:


A very interesting article about how even wild birds will flock to nutritionally incomplete sources of food.



Yes I did read that WHOLE.
And I did note there were not that biased.
But I was in a hurry, and failed to find the correct scientific report that shows what fabricated B12 was made from and explains that it is not very bio available to any bird.
 

clawnz

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From this article - Are Natural Diets Nutritional?:


A very interesting article about how even wild birds will flock to nutritionally incomplete sources of food.
Look! A bullet hole in your foot!

First no pellet will ever copy nature.
As they explain birds eat a wide variety of foods, depending on season.
They NEVER have the same food all year.
How is any pellet going to copy that? Never.
So you think the same old processed ground up dried up boring nugget, is going to replace that?
Really!!
I bet you would not be eating the same rubbish day after day. Even if it was any good.
So why would you think a bird that lives on fresh foods should?

You never replied about the BANNED substance in so many pellets?
Menadione.

Now please explain to me so others can also see.
Balanced diet?
Nutritionally complete. (Yes I read that). At least Roudybush seemed to have STOPPED claiming 'All you need to feed'
And most smart people have figured it out and do not feed at the rates quoted by the manufactures.
But that brings in new issues.
If they were in any way nutritionally complete. feeding 25% or less is a waste of time.
What goodness you see in ground up corn for a parrot? not to mention stale.
And note this can be over 60% of some pellets.

I was taught never feed any more than 10% junk food. Yet here we have 60%+ junk food in just one ingredient of a pellet. And that list goes on.
What is any good in a pellet?
If we take Harrisons for example.
Dead enzymes. Destroyed goodness, (What little there was anyway). Then they add things to make up for the damage they have done.
 

painesgrey

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You clearly missed the entire point of the article. It clearly states that what parrots choose to eat in nature is not always conducive to a healthy, long life. Your entire argument is that "natural is always better" and I'm trying to tell you that is fallacious.

It's clear to me that you have an opinion that's largely founded in an unhealthy skepticism and anti-intellectualism. No amount of scientific evidence to the contrary is going to sway you, and that's fine. You do you.

That being said, I would urge you to take a more rational and reasoned approach to how you communicate with other people, because at this point it just looks like you're on a rambling tirade.

I hope your birds live long, healthy lives. :)

 

clawnz

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I take it a troll is anyone who you do not agree with?
Pellets are not an answer to good health. Never have been and never will be.
That is a fact you are never going to prove otherwise.
And as I have said the smart ones who removed pellets from their birds diets, have seen improvements in health, condition, and behavior.

Well reported about how breeding success fell off when breeders switched to pellet based diets.
And when they removed them how things changed for the better.

I was sent this just the other day. When we were discussing this subject on a group.
And some vet lab guy was trying to promote what this company had achieved, feeding their pellets.
All I can say is WOW!
It must be damn annoying when FACTS like this get in the way of convenience.
Christine Kojak Even Hagen, longtime bird manufacturer, did a study on why birds are dying sooner now than 30 years ago. Found out birds fed exclusively on pellets were dying sooner than those on only seed diet. Had a lab here in u.s. only one of its kind. Found out that seeds contained natural fats not found in pellets. Fats! To say seeds are bad, is ludicrous! And ironically, they are a manufacturer of seeds and pellets. So take that, skeptics!
 

Jas

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No one on here feeds pellets exclusively (I don't). They get seeds, sprouts, birdie bread, veggies, herbs, spices, fruits, nuts, grains, (odd bit of toast to but shhhhh), eggs and yes pellets.

They can choose to eat their chop or pellets, they forage for seeds and nuts. Some days they don't want veggies, some days they don't want pellets. They always have choice and they always have a varied diet, they know what they want and know what they want to eat. My birds ALWAYS have a choice and can seek out food that contains the right nutrients that they might be lacking.

Replicating their wild diet is practically impossible.
 

finchly

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I take it a troll is anyone who you do not agree with
No, actually I use the definition of troll, from the dictionary:
The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue.

From your post, I would like you to show us scientific —- not anecdotal evidence that birds are not living as long in captivity. Everything I’ve read mentions that they are living longer than ever, as we have learned more about their diet and care.

I think we all get it, you are anti pellets. What exactly do you feed yours? Most of us as @Jas mentioned feed a large variety. I think variety in diet is key — for yourself, other pets like dogs, as well as birds.
 

clawnz

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No, actually I use the definition of troll, from the dictionary:
The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue.

From your post, I would like you to show us scientific —- not anecdotal evidence that birds are not living as long in captivity. Everything I’ve read mentions that they are living longer than ever, as we have learned more about their diet and care.

I think we all get it, you are anti pellets. What exactly do you feed yours? Most of us as @Jas mentioned feed a large variety. I think variety in diet is key — for yourself, other pets like dogs, as well as birds.
Try researching or contacting Hagan.
They actually did a study on bird longevity.
That should slow you up.

And it is a fact that breeders see a drop off in breeding when they were sucked into using pellets.
And it is a fact that once they removed them, had better results.

Sorry you do not like the truth or facts.
Pellets have never been a good food, and never will be.
You again only have to do a little bit of work. Oh! that's right I forgot! You feed pellets, so maybe you do not like too much work.
To see the FAD of feeding processed is dying off right across the pet trade.

And fresh is the reason.
 

finchly

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Why did you quote that part but refuse to answer my question?
 
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