Question for Macaw Breeders

[ELS]

Hi,

I wasn't sure where I should put this but I figured the macaw section would work. Over the past few days I've read some articles about scarlet macaws, which are endangered in the wild.

Apparently one issue that biologists are facing is that the parents usually starve all but one of their chicks. They feed and raise the first one that hatches, the second that hatches has a 50% chance of being fed but it isn't always enough, the third to hatch has nearly 100% chance of being starved, and if there is a fourth it is never fed (so 100% chance of starvation). Part of the study involves going up to nests daily and weighing the chicks, and biologists are experimenting with fostering the "surplus" chicks that hatch out to other pairs.

Anyway, this is really fascinating from a biological perspective. I am guessing that some contributing factors could be difficulty for pairs to gather enough food to satisfy all of the chicks and perhaps, being so long-lived, less need to raise larger clutches and therefore more benefit to investing all of their resources in one chick.

I have two questions that Google wasn't helping me satisfy:

Does this happen with scarlet macaws in captivity, or do they raise more chicks in a controlled setting? I'm mostly wondering if no competition (one pair per enclosure) and unlimited, easy access to food affects this.

Is this unique to scarlet macaws, or do other macaw species do this too? They were the only ones I found mentioned but it seems unlikely that only one species exhibits this behavior.

I'm just curious and figured I'd check if anyone here knew the answers.

 

[JLcribber]

The number one rule in the wild is "survival of the fittest". The purpose being that strong bloodlines and healthy specimens are the ones passing on the genes. Enhancing the species.

Breeding in captivity is nothing like breeding in the wild. It is a totally human controlled endeavour that would be better compared to "farming".

 

[ELS]

The number one rule in the wild is "survival of the fittest". The purpose being that strong bloodlines and healthy specimens are the ones passing on the genes. Enhancing the species.

Breeding in captivity is nothing like breeding in the wild. It is a totally human controlled endeavour that would be better compared to "farming".

Yes, and I was thinking that perhaps one reason for pairs favoring the first chick to hatch was because the first one produced often has the strongest genetics and therefore is the most "worthwhile" for them to invest their resources in.

I was more wondering if, since parrots really aren't domesticated, putting them in an artificial environment where they have no competing pairs and abundant, high energy food would alter their rearing behaviors. One of the articles indicated that they were trying to determine if the availability of food played a role, so I was curious if anyone that had bred macaws had seen correlations. From a behavioral standpoint it would be really interesting if wild pairs were consciously choosing to rear only the first chick because they were somehow aware of the available food in the area. On the other hand, if they still exhibit this behavior in an adequate controlled/captive environment with abundant resources, then it points to other causes.

Of course the quality of the environment would play a role. I'm thinking more aviary/flight pen setups, not bird mill type situations. Something at least like this, not like this. The second one is quite sad.

For the record I did not see any articles claiming that the biologists were thinking of doing anything with captive bred birds at present. At the moment they seem to just be gathering data and trying to understand the selective rearing.

 

[JLcribber]

I was more wondering if, since parrots really aren't domesticated, putting them in an artificial environment where they have no competing pairs and abundant, high energy food would alter their rearing behaviors. One of the articles indicated that they were trying to determine if the availability of food played a role, so I was curious if anyone that had bred macaws had seen correlations. From a behavioral standpoint it would be really interesting if wild pairs were consciously choosing to rear only the first chick because they were somehow aware of the available food in the area. On the other hand, if they still exhibit this behavior in an adequate controlled/captive environment with abundant resources, then it points to other causes.

Breeding in captivity involves putting two birds (M/F) in a cage. Most times they do not even get to choose the other. If they breed those chicks are plucked from the nest and taken away from their parents. They are human imprinted and hand fed. Damaging their psyche right from the start. The parents are not given a chance to do anything natural except lay more eggs and keep breeding.

So there is nothing natural about any of this process. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[JLcribber]

Something at least like this,

This is not a breeding situation. It's just an aviary.

 

[ELS]

Hmmm, that's not quite the point. There is no comparison in the manner that you are suggesting, just two questions.

 

[BeanieofJustice]

I've heard of other species doing this too - I can't recall the article so unfortunately, it's just anecdotal for the moment - but with limited resources, it's a brutal reality that the parents probably couldn't successfully raise many chicks if they spread their resources out. I would think that human intervention (hunting, catching for pet trade, destruction of habitat, etc.) would have been a bigger disruption than the macaws doing what they've probably always done.
John is right - it's difficult to compare captive breeding and wild breeding because one is a pre-set up scenario where the parents may or may not even know how to raise their own chicks. There are many times I've read about pairs attacking and killing each other, the chicks or simply starving the chicks because they don't understand what to do. I suspect that even if a semi-wild captive breeding program took place, it would depend on how much the chick needed to be fed and how much food the parents could find, how much effort it took them to fly their (caloric cost) and other things that need to be done. I would think it's pretty hard-wired into them to disperse resources in the most efficient and most promising for success as possible.
I have to go to work but it's an interesting topic.

 

[melissasparrots]

I doubt you will get a logical response on this forum. Lots of breeder haters here. I can tell you that I know of a very few pairs that will feed a full clutch up to a few weeks old when the breeder steps in to hand feed. I’ve heard of a very few coparenting situations where hyacinths raised 3 babies as the breeder assisted hand feeding. However, not all pairs are tolerant of that much interference. Most breeders don’t like it when babies die. So they either pull the whole clutch for hand feeding at a few weeks old or they monitor closely and pull to hand feed at the first sign of trouble.
I don’t think we actually have any macaw breeders on this forum.

 

[BeanieofJustice]

I doubt you will get a logical response on this forum. Lots of breeder haters here. I can tell you that I know of a very few pairs that will feed a full clutch up to a few weeks old when the breeder steps in to hand feed. I’ve heard of a very few coparenting situations where hyacinths raised 3 babies as the breeder assisted hand feeding. However, not all pairs are tolerant of that much interference. Most breeders don’t like it when babies die. So they either pull the whole clutch for hand feeding at a few weeks old or they monitor closely and pull to hand feed at the first sign of trouble.
I don’t think we actually have any macaw breeders on this forum.

I'm curious, do you know whether they have to pull all of the chicks because the parents were only feeding one or did they stop feeding the entire clutch? No hate here; just honestly curious. I guess though having the majority of the chicks taken away could trigger the parents to stop parenting?
I think you're right about there not being any macaw breeders on the board.

 

[melissasparrots]

I'm curious, do you know whether they have to pull all of the chicks because the parents were only feeding one or did they stop feeding the entire clutch? No hate here; just honestly curious. I guess though having the majority of the chicks taken away could trigger the parents to stop parenting?
I think you're right about there not being any macaw breeders on the board.

Breeding large parrots can be a little different. Sometimes a pair will get so used to babies being pulled for hand-feeding at a certain age that they will just stop caring for chicks or start pulling pin feathers at about the time their babies have always been pulled in the past. In most cases I've heard about in both large and small parrots, the parents will preferentially feed the first 1-3 babies (depending on species) and the youngest chicks will basically get the left overs, become stunted and eventually die. If you read through the breeder forum, there are plenty of cases like that with small birds. My amazons always did a pretty good job with their babies and I only had to step in to feed when a baby was injured (stepped on) or sick(bacterial infection). In the USA, most breeders want to produce chicks for the pet trade so they will pull to hand-feed at some point. Breeders vary on when they start hand-feeding, but its usually somewhere between 10 days to 6 weeks for some large species with an experienced breeder. In many cases, the breeder can pull the youngest baby for hand-feeding and leave the oldest much longer. Although, it gets dicey with large parrots, trying to get into the box to check on things without getting your fingers removed or the parents taking out their frustrations on the chicks. A lot of breeders don't want to take chances and just pull the whole clutch. A lot just depends on the species, the pair's history and what the breeder prefers. That is the part that gets the most hate from pet keepers. They want a tame baby, hate that it has to be taken from the parents to hand-feed to be the tame bird they want, so they hate on breeders and push for rescue. Not unbiased or scientific at all which is I think what you want. I don't breed macaws personally, so I can only share what I learned when researching breeders when I bought my pet hyacinth. I've bred amazons, quakers, parrotlets, cockatiels, so I can only infer based on my own experiences and what actual macaw breeders have told me.

 

[BeanieofJustice]

Breeding large parrots can be a little different. Sometimes a pair will get so used to babies being pulled for hand-feeding at a certain age that they will just stop caring for chicks or start pulling pin feathers at about the time their babies have always been pulled in the past. In most cases I've heard about in both large and small parrots, the parents will preferentially feed the first 1-3 babies (depending on species) and the youngest chicks will basically get the left overs, become stunted and eventually die. If you read through the breeder forum, there are plenty of cases like that with small birds. My amazons always did a pretty good job with their babies and I only had to step in to feed when a baby was injured (stepped on) or sick(bacterial infection). In the USA, most breeders want to produce chicks for the pet trade so they will pull to hand-feed at some point. Breeders vary on when they start hand-feeding, but its usually somewhere between 10 days to 6 weeks for some large species with an experienced breeder. In many cases, the breeder can pull the youngest baby for hand-feeding and leave the oldest much longer. Although, it gets dicey with large parrots, trying to get into the box to check on things without getting your fingers removed or the parents taking out their frustrations on the chicks. A lot of breeders don't want to take chances and just pull the whole clutch. A lot just depends on the species, the pair's history and what the breeder prefers. That is the part that gets the most hate from pet keepers. They want a tame baby, hate that it has to be taken from the parents to hand-feed to be the tame bird they want, so they hate on breeders and push for rescue. Not unbiased or scientific at all which is I think what you want. I don't breed macaws personally, so I can only share what I learned when researching breeders when I bought my pet hyacinth. I've bred amazons, quakers, parrotlets, cockatiels, so I can only infer based on my own experiences and what actual macaw breeders have told me.

Thank you! This was an interesting read, I know only a little about breeding/breeders from what I've read on here and the majority has been smaller birds so I was curious if the larger birds were different, I know that there is bound to be pair and individual differences. I've never met or spoken to a macaw breeder, or any bird breeder besides a woman who'd bred cockatiels 30 years ago, so I do appreciate your insight. That's interesting to know how good your Amazons were, do they do the feeding only the oldest/strongest chicks in the wild?

 

[melissasparrots]

do they do the feeding only the oldest/strongest chicks in the wild?

I don't think amazons are as known for it as macaws. Although, to be honest, I've never researched it much. I just don't run across data on amazons as much as macaws. I just did a quick search and found a study of yellow shouldered amazons from the 90's and early 2000's that showed some nest mortality due to undetermined cause which could be anything from disease to starvation. The study wasn't collecting weight data on chicks. It did mention a rather high rate of nest poaching from humans which is sad and around 20% losses due to predation.

 

[ELS]

I doubt you will get a logical response on this forum. Lots of breeder haters here. I can tell you that I know of a very few pairs that will feed a full clutch up to a few weeks old when the breeder steps in to hand feed. I’ve heard of a very few coparenting situations where hyacinths raised 3 babies as the breeder assisted hand feeding. However, not all pairs are tolerant of that much interference. Most breeders don’t like it when babies die. So they either pull the whole clutch for hand feeding at a few weeks old or they monitor closely and pull to hand feed at the first sign of trouble.
I don’t think we actually have any macaw breeders on this forum.

Breeding large parrots can be a little different. Sometimes a pair will get so used to babies being pulled for hand-feeding at a certain age that they will just stop caring for chicks or start pulling pin feathers at about the time their babies have always been pulled in the past. In most cases I've heard about in both large and small parrots, the parents will preferentially feed the first 1-3 babies (depending on species) and the youngest chicks will basically get the left overs, become stunted and eventually die. If you read through the breeder forum, there are plenty of cases like that with small birds. My amazons always did a pretty good job with their babies and I only had to step in to feed when a baby was injured (stepped on) or sick(bacterial infection). In the USA, most breeders want to produce chicks for the pet trade so they will pull to hand-feed at some point. Breeders vary on when they start hand-feeding, but its usually somewhere between 10 days to 6 weeks for some large species with an experienced breeder. In many cases, the breeder can pull the youngest baby for hand-feeding and leave the oldest much longer. Although, it gets dicey with large parrots, trying to get into the box to check on things without getting your fingers removed or the parents taking out their frustrations on the chicks. A lot of breeders don't want to take chances and just pull the whole clutch. A lot just depends on the species, the pair's history and what the breeder prefers. That is the part that gets the most hate from pet keepers. They want a tame baby, hate that it has to be taken from the parents to hand-feed to be the tame bird they want, so they hate on breeders and push for rescue. Not unbiased or scientific at all which is I think what you want. I don't breed macaws personally, so I can only share what I learned when researching breeders when I bought my pet hyacinth. I've bred amazons, quakers, parrotlets, cockatiels, so I can only infer based on my own experiences and what actual macaw breeders have told me.

I don't think amazons are as known for it as macaws. Although, to be honest, I've never researched it much. I just don't run across data on amazons as much as macaws. I just did a quick search and found a study of yellow shouldered amazons from the 90's and early 2000's that showed some nest mortality due to undetermined cause which could be anything from disease to starvation. The study wasn't collecting weight data on chicks. It did mention a rather high rate of nest poaching from humans which is sad and around 20% losses due to predation.

Thank you, Melissa! That's really enlightening and helpful. I did know that there is a lot of hostility here towards breeders (and in general, really) that seems to have driven most of them away, but as the questions were only tangentially related to breeding I didn't think it would draw anyone out of the woodwork. I definitely didn't expect to have my questions suppressed by someone drawing the wrong conclusions and then insisting that those were my conclusions.
I figured that most breeders would be wanting to pull all of the chicks to get the best survival rate. It sounds like it's not unique to the scarlets then, and that they probably do the same in captivity. I feel like I have heard that hyacinths are particularly good parents before. I didn't know that a lot of people were anti-breeder because of not wanting chicks to be taken away from parents though. That seems rather odd, since most here appear to prefer the hand-raised birds. Parent-reared birds won't generally have as high of a quality of life as the hand-raised ones, especially if they don't fall into the hands of someone with the knowledge and patience to work with them.
It seems like breeders of anything are getting heckled these days. I appreciate all the hard work you and others do. Good breeders are usually the most knowledgeable ones about their species or breed as well. You can learn a lot from a half hour spent picking their brains.

 

[melissasparrots]

I agree with you. I don't think it's particularly logical, but who needs logic when you have lots and lots of emotions driving you. And when you can interpret "science" through the lens of your emotions, then you really have something to rant about. There is more to the anti-breeder sentiment, but I do think this forum would be richer if it were more breeder friendly. I don't breed much anymore. I've turned my interests to other things avian, although I still have my pairs.