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Quaker with nasal infection is not getting better

LailaB

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OMG MY FRIENDS! LOUIE DID A COMPLETE 180! He stopped wheezing, he's barely sneezing AND he's eating well again its a FREAKING MIRACLE! the vet said he looked so distressed from being handled by the vet (with the nasal flush, blood work and his beak and claws trimmed) so he was in terrible shape. DOXYCYCLINE FOR THE WIN!!!!

P.S. he does not have a bacterial infection/fungal infection and its a MIRACLE!!!

I'M SO HAPPY!
 

webchirp

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OMG MY FRIENDS! LOUIE DID A COMPLETE 180! He stopped wheezing, he's barely sneezing AND he's eating well again its a FREAKING MIRACLE! the vet said he looked so distressed from being handled by the vet (with the nasal flush, blood work and his beak and claws trimmed) so he was in terrible shape. DOXYCYCLINE FOR THE WIN!!!!

P.S. he does not have a bacterial infection/fungal infection and its a MIRACLE!!!

I'M SO HAPPY!
YEAH!!! :hug8:
 

iamwhoiam

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That's great news!!
 

LailaB

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HELLO MY FRIENDS! LOUIE DID A COMPLETE 180! He's breathing normally, sneezing occasionally, and eating and pooping well! ITS A FREAKING MIRACLE! DOXYCYCLINE FOR THE WIN!!!! he doesn't have any fungal infections according to the blood work so that'e awesome. REJOICE FELLOW BIRDPERSONS!
 

LailaB

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Has anyone else had a bird on Doxycycline specifically for a respiratory infection? Lou is on a 14 day treatment and I've noticed some ups and downs in his improvement.
 

LailaB

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Did your vet perform any tests o your bird? At the minimum he should have done a CBC and a Chem panel. y vet would have performed a culture and sensitivity to determine what bacteria it is and what antibiotic is effective.

There is also a possibility of a fungal infection as well and antibiotics don't do any good with fungus. Aspergillosis is a possibility with the nasal draninage and the change in voice and problem breathing - Aspergillosis is very serious. Acute and Chronic Aspergillosis in Birds: Causes, Signs, Treatment, and Prevention

Your bird need to go to the vet immediately and at the very minimum have the tests mentioned above on him.

Let us know how he is doing and what the vet says,
Hey~ So Lou is still having breathing problems even though they have reduced greatly(there is still a clicking sound). His blood work came back clean and his white blood cell count was normal (10,000) and 3 different vets have been giving me various answers. One said that because his blood is clean he does not have a fungal infection, another said he might since Baytril and Doxycycline haven't cleared him up he needs two types of nasal fluid cultures done. And I'm really not sure what to do...I noticed that in a lot of your posts that Itraconazole has had bad side effects and this is the one that's been recommended to me by the vet. Any thoughts on this situation?
 

Lady Jane

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I don't believe a serum lab test would pick up fungal infection. @Milo am I correct?
 

SandraK

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What area of the US are you located in (if in the US)? Someone might be able to recommend a different avian vet for you.
 

Milo

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I don't believe a serum lab test would pick up fungal infection. @Milo am I correct?
It depends on the test. There is a serology test for asper but it’s not a great test. A fungal infection like asper would typically cause a super elevated white count, even in a chronic case. Itraconazole would be the anti fungal of choice for asper, even with the risk of potential side effects.

A clicking sound may or may not be normal for him. I’m assuming when the vet listens with the stethoscope that the lungs sound clear?

For me the next step would be a radiograph or a CT to assess the airways. A cytology from the nasal flush wouldn’t be a bad idea, a culture from that area isn’t going to be super helpful because of the nature of the airways. My only suggestion would be to get a sample through a sterile procedure and culture that.

It sounds like he’s doing well though, that white count is not scary. Are his chems good?
 

Hankmacaw

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A CBC and chem panel will not indicate Asper except for a very high WBC count. When we did and xray on Hank and saw the cobwebs in his lungs we were pretty sure. I would highly recommend an xray as your next test. After the xray we ran a Asper Titer test on his serum and he came back with a 3.9 titer - pretty high.

Here is good article on possible test for your bird to determine if she has Asper.

Serodiagnostics for Avian Aspergillosis | Avian and Wildlife Laboratory at Miller School of Medicine

The medical costs of curing Asper are quite high. If your bird does end up having Asper I recommend that you talk to your Dr. about using Voraconazole (1st choice) or Lamisil (Terbinafine). I used Voriconazole on Jasper when she had Asper and had very good results and virtually no side effects.

Hope I have helped.
 

LailaB

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Yeah I just wan
It depends on the test. There is a serology test for asper but it’s not a great test. A fungal infection like asper would typically cause a super elevated white count, even in a chronic case. Itraconazole would be the anti fungal of choice for asper, even with the risk of potential side effects.

A clicking sound may or may not be normal for him. I’m assuming when the vet listens with the stethoscope that the lungs sound clear?

For me the next step would be a radiograph or a CT to assess the airways. A cytology from the nasal flush wouldn’t be a bad idea, a culture from that area isn’t going to be super helpful because of the nature of the airways. My only suggestion would be to get a sample through a sterile procedure and culture that.

It sounds like he’s doing well though, that white count is not scary. Are his chems good?
The vet did listen to his lungs and just said that he probably has a respiratory infection, he now plans on doing both a nasal flush and culture and CT...the next step would be an X-Ray with sedation. I just really want to make sure we're doing the right tests because its all getting pretty expensive and I'm on a student loan budget!
 

LailaB

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A CBC and chem panel will not indicate Asper except for a very high WBC count. When we did and xray on Hank and saw the cobwebs in his lungs we were pretty sure. I would highly recommend an xray as your next test. After the xray we ran a Asper Titer test on his serum and he came back with a 3.9 titer - pretty high.

Here is good article on possible test for your bird to determine if she has Asper.

Serodiagnostics for Avian Aspergillosis | Avian and Wildlife Laboratory at Miller School of Medicine

The medical costs of curing Asper are quite high. If your bird does end up having Asper I recommend that you talk to your Dr. about using Voraconazole (1st choice) or Lamisil (Terbinafine). I used Voriconazole on Jasper when she had Asper and had very good results and virtually no side effects.

Hope I have helped.
So would the xray show any type of bacterial or fungal infection even if it was not Asper?
 

Hankmacaw

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Not unless the bacterial/fungal infection has formed a granuloma or is localized and pretty dense or has caused cloudiness in the lungs and airsacs. Jasper had a bacterial infection on her syrinx and it was quite easy to see on the xray, but if the infection is not localized and dense, it won't show.

A xray can eliminate some things - such as something stuck in her throat or sinuses. My next step would be an xray.

How much does your vet charge for a CAT scan or a xray? The CAT scan requires anesthesia - they have to be still for a long, long time. My vet has his own CAT scanner and charges $500 for a Scan. An xray (we always use anesthesia on my birds) and anesthesia are about $210.

As a student, I'm sure you don't have money just flying around. Try to get a Care Credit card it will lengthen the time of payments and if paid off in a certain length of time there is no interest. https://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlqnUlqvi2QIVE6vsCh2yYQn3EAAYASADEgKsVvD_BwE After the free interest time you can still make payments, but interest is charged.

I'm not very familiar with Quakers, but I can't see anything wrong with his beak.

 

Hankmacaw

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PS - I'm sure you are young, but never/ever let a vet to tell you your bird "probably" has something and then go ahead and medicate for "probably". Ask them to explain and justify and if they won't - find a new and better Dr.

PPS - buy some probiotics for your baby. He has been on atibiotics long enough that most of his good intestinal fauna an flora have been killed by them. Most owners use either this Amazon.com : Bene-Bac Bird & Reptile Powder, 10oz : Pet Supplements And Vitamins : Pet Supplies or this Amazon.com : Avitech AviBios Lactobacillus and Probiotics - 4 oz. : Herbal Supplements : Pet Supplies
 
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LailaB

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Yeah you're right, I've spent almost $1000 on "probably" at this point and now I'm trying to make more informed decisions. As for his beak I just noticed that around his nostrils have begin looking dry and white but I guess that's normal, he has had mucus coming out of his nose for so long I forgot how it looked dry. Thanks a lot for the advice!
 

Milo

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You absolutely do NOT need anesthesia for a CT scan. They need to be sedated, and the whole process takes less than ten minutes. An MRI would be the longer procedure under anesthesia.
 

Milo

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Not unless the bacterial/fungal infection has formed a granuloma or is localized and pretty dense or has caused cloudiness in the lungs and airsacs. Jasper had a bacterial infection on her syrinx and it was quite easy to see on the xray, but if the infection is not localized and dense, it won't show.

A xray can eliminate some things - such as something stuck in her throat or sinuses. My next step would be an xray.

How much does your vet charge for a CAT scan or a xray? The CAT scan requires anesthesia - they have to be still for a long, long time. My vet has his own CAT scanner and charges $500 for a Scan. An xray (we always use anesthesia on my birds) and anesthesia are about $210.

As a student, I'm sure you don't have money just flying around. Try to get a Care Credit card it will lengthen the time of payments and if paid off in a certain length of time there is no interest. https://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlqnUlqvi2QIVE6vsCh2yYQn3EAAYASADEgKsVvD_BwE After the free interest time you can still make payments, but interest is charged.

I'm not very familiar with Quakers, but I can't see anything wrong with his beak.
A radiograph may or may not show granulomas. You're also a lot less likely to get good definition on radiographs in a smaller bird like a quaker. It certainly has value as a diagnostic tool, but in this case if there's a concern about something systemic it would make more financial sense to just do the CT, it will give you the most information and if the radiograph is inconclusive it's likely the doctor will recommend the CT.

The beak looks like the keratin might be getting a little flaky but it doesn't look like anything super abnormal at this point.

Talk with your doctor about the financial concerns and about prioritizing tests, if it's not something you've brought up before they might not realize your concerns.

Ask your doctor before getting probiotics for your bird. There's not really any evidence that they actually do anything because of the huge variation in normal gut flora between species.

One last question, what's his diet like?
 

LailaB

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Hey Milo, he eats his standards pellets and snack mix with sunflower seeds, for human food he eats apples, bananas, toast, pasta, sometimes egg white and tbh he loves chicken but we try and limit that as much as possible.
 

Milo

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Hey Milo, he eats his standards pellets and snack mix with sunflower seeds, for human food he eats apples, bananas, toast, pasta, sometimes egg white and tbh he loves chicken but we try and limit that as much as possible.
Awesome. As long as he's really eating the pellets, it's really common to overfeed birds and then they don't eat the pellets as they should. I would recommend cutting out all animal protein, companion parrots are really susceptible to atherosclerosis and animal proteins are a HUGE risk factor for them. It also sounds like he gets a lot of carbs, his total intake should be relatively low, and on the days where he gets the toast and/or pasta you should reduce the amount of the snack mix he gets. Will he eat any veggies?

The reason I ask is that respiratory infections and other chronic respiratory issues can be caused by a lack of vitamin A in their diet. It causes the epithelium of the respiratory tract to slough more often and can lead to a loss of choanal papillae (pointy structures on the roof of their mouth that protect the choanal slit which is on the roof of their mouth). A pelleted diet is the best way to correct this issue, but everything that we add to it dilutes out the vitamins that are in the pellets. Of course they should have a varied diet (no one recommends a 100% pelleted diet) But that added portion to the pellets should be limited to a small amount of seeds, then essentially free choice non-starchy/sugary veggies (snap peas, broccoli, bell pepper) and a limited amount of fruit. Fruits are tricky because they can also be full of sugar. Trying things like berries would be the best to offer. My doc recommends looking at fruits and veggies that have a low glycemic index number to help guide choices.
 
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