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Discussion in 'Feathered Food Court' started by clawnz, 1/11/19.

  1. clawnz

    clawnz Rollerblading along the road Avenue Veteran

    Auckland NZ
    Real Name:
    I am not referring to the only one I know that is really OK. Tops. These are made from real foods and not heat treated.

    I am referring to nearly all the rest.
    With so many Pro Pellet people here. Who go on about what you cannot get by not feeding pellets.

    Please instead of just saying all other foods do not provide such and such.
    Show us the evidence to justify your conviction.
    And I do not mean the so called non biased ones PAID for by the manufactures.
    Independent sound evidence would actually be great.

    What is clear about nearly every pellet out of America is.
    Menandione: Toxic and banned in most countries. It may also be under a different name. Used in bird pellets as Vit K synthetic supplement. WOW! and you know that birds are thought, on a good varied diet can make enough in their own bodies without the need for this nasty.
    Oh! That's right! You need it if you are feeding pellets. I almost forgot. (Yes intended sarcasm).

    Added sugar.

    Added Salt.

    Synthetic supplements. Most with any degree of research will know that these are known to not be as good as the real deal. Vit C, as an example.

    Dyes. These are just crazy! Read up on all those that just have a number. One that has me stunned.
    Again America drags it's feet in banning this. I think 28 times it has been asked. And yet is still used.

    Ground up Corn.
    Ground up Soy.
    Both these have very little nutritional value, and are there as cheap fillers.

    There any number of other manufactured products in most pellets on the market.

    Something I hardly ever see these pellet diet specialists mention is Enzymes? Why is that?
    When these are so very important. Is it because those who promote these heat treated pellets, know there are none in the pellets! Because they were all killed off in the heating. Along with some of the goodness that may have been in the bulking agents used .
    These enzymes are one of the most important things we need to look at, as they help with digestion.
    By feeding a pellet based diet you are limiting these.
    Use them or loose them. This is no different to muscle tone and why flight is so important to our birds.
    And WHY I am so anti clipping.
    You see the connection?
    You are never going to beat a natural raw whole food diet , with some manufactured product.
    Based on what they knew or know, for chicken foods.

    To put the cat among the pigeons, so to speak.
    In my research on these manufactured foods. (Man I hate using the word food, when referring to pellets).
    It seems those who jumped, when they became all the rage, found their breeding deteriorated. Cut out the pellets and the birds bounced back.

    I also found reference to the facts, that smaller birds were not doing so well on these fabricated food diets.

    Well known are the facts that Eclectus suffer from overloading of these synthetic supplements.
    So why do people not think the same is happening across all other species?
    Often seen as Plucking, Barbering, and self mutilation.

    Vitamin D: Oh Yes. this is one that leaves me again stunned. As all to often the pro pellet people say your birds cannot get this without pellets or supplementation.
    Well I have bad news for these people. I call you out as telling lies, and misleading people.
    Where is your evidence?

    Quote: Zinny Cockatiel has laid in excess of 40 eggs over a three year period. while living in a bird room.
    No pellets. No added synthetic supplements, and only Low wattage FSL, which it has been shown do not give any UVB. And are there for the light spectrum mainly.
    I have conditioned up a good number of birds.
    Those that follow me, will know.
    I do not feed any processed foods at all.
    I do not feed any supplements,at all. Unless I have a bird come in and vet checks can show the need.
    I do feed 100% natural foods, and have huge success with bringing so many birds back to good condition and health.
    To the point I am now asked for help feeding real foods.

    Pellets and supplemental over loading is very real.
    It may take many years, to build up. Very hard to test for, can and does cause health issues.
    Hard to clear from their bodies in most cases.
    I have enough evidence to show who is correct. So please feel free to challenge the results I have on record.
  2. clawnz

    clawnz Rollerblading along the road Avenue Veteran

    Auckland NZ
    Real Name:
    An example of a afternoon feed out for 17 birds.

  3. clawnz

    clawnz Rollerblading along the road Avenue Veteran

    Auckland NZ
    Real Name:
    Whew! Taken forever to be able to get this to post.
    Here is an average morning feed out.

    Lady Jane likes this.
  4. Lady Jane

    Lady Jane Joyriding the Neighborhood Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

    Real Name:
    MauiWendy likes this.
  5. SherLar

    SherLar Meeting neighbors

    I am glad you have brought forth your ideas and open for discussion. I was wondering if you could provide links or sources so that my husband and I can read up on this as well, being relatively knew to larger parrots and finding just how finicky they can be. Our finch were only on seeds and refused any fresh foods offered, other than live mini meal worms. And they bred like flying rabbits. We have since moved away from finch and have 2 parrots of our own and the parrots we are fostering and rehabing through a local bird club. We kind of have to provide what we are told by them, since we are only fostering. Some of these birds came from diets of sunflower and peanuts and others had food off their owners plates, ie french fries, taco bell etc. Most are currently on a seed / pellet/ fresh fruits and veggies, though most of the fresh foods go to waste. Some of the dried fruits do get eaten on occasion.. Mostly trying to get them over to something and anything better than what they came from. And me not going broke throwing out different foods all the time. I had tried buying organic seeds, grains and nuts, but again so much they just refused to eat. Another forum, a woman that had studied parrots for years in the wild in areas of South America, had us cooking all these organic mashes for the birds, but that fell on it's face. Apparently I am a lousy cook!

    Thank you
    Lady Jane likes this.
  6. SherLar

    SherLar Meeting neighbors

    So not corn but popcorn is good for them?? As per your posts. I think it is so cool that your birds find all those foods in their natural environment. I guess our parrots don't have that advantage in the areas they originated from, South America and Indonesia. We can't even replicate their lighting, growing season, or temperatures to match their nature lands. We adopted our parrots as adults. Good bad or indifferent.

    I always thought enzymes and co-enzymes were mainly produced by the body in order for the body to break down the different sugars, proteins, fats etc the body consumed.

    Last edited: 1/11/19
  7. MauiWendy

    MauiWendy Sprinting down the street

    Maui, Hawaii
    Real Name:
    I feed Goldenfeast but not the goldn'obles and Harrison's HP Course. I am going to try the goldn'obles.
  8. clawnz

    clawnz Rollerblading along the road Avenue Veteran

    Auckland NZ
    Real Name:
    The corn (Popcorn is just a fraction of any of their diets. Where in pellets they can be as much as 60% of a pellet.
    So even though popcorn has little nutritional value, consider it as a treat, and only feed now and then.
    Over a month it may not even be 2% of total diet.
    I hope that explains that.

    Enzymes are every where, but to some point you are correct about digestive enzymes.
    An easy way to explain how important digestive enzymes are.
    If you are used to a good wide variety of foods, you should notice that you have no issues digesting most foods.
    Yet how often do you hear about certain people who cannot eat certain foods, or they have trouble digesting certain foods.
    Mostly you will find these are foods they have not eaten. Vegans and vegetarians come to mind with their limited diets.
    This can be directly considered the same for our birds.

    Use or loose.

    I have 100% success rate with introducing fresh live sprouts. WHY! Simply I believe most birds see them as a natural food.
    And we are talking now of these becoming excepted as more than 40% of some diets.
    So while we are seeing a decline in the amount of pellets being fed per serving, their has been an increase in the amount of sprouts.
    I am not talking about commercial mixes. As these can be limited in variety. (Not it seems).
    My own mix as listed in my sprouts thread here.
    Has well over 20 varieties, of seeds and grains.
    And anybody who wants to tell you they lack good nutritional value, will be those who sell or promote fabricated foods.

    SPROUTS are simply the freshest most alive food that you can eat.They are rich in antioxidants, minerals, proteins, enzymes ... all in a form easily assimilated by bodies ... both human and bird.
    WARNING WARNING DO NOT SPROUT: Sorghum is also known as Milo, Mega Millet, & Super Millet. It's ok dry, but it synthesizes a very large & toxic amount of cyanide when sprouted. Ref:
    The seeds of four cultivars of grain sorghum and four of sweet sorghum (Sorghum blcolor (L.) Moench) contained only traces (1 or 2 ppm) to 29 ppm of potential hydrocyanic acid (HCN) that could be generated as free HCN by digestion and steam distillation. Sprouts of the same cultivars grown for 3 days in the dark at 30°C, however, contained from 258–1030 ppm potential HCN relative to the weight of the ungerminated, dry seed. Drying at 50°C and grinding of sprouts to produce a meal did not reduce the potential HCN content. The consumption of sorghum sprouts or products made from them may be hazardous. The average amount (61.3 mg) of HCN obtained in our laboratory from sprouts grown from 100g of seed exceeds the average fatal dose for an adult. (I will try to confirm this).
    Apparently this is being used in some seed mix’s, and these should not be considered safe to sprout.

    Adzuki beans
    Blue Peas
    Black Sesame seeds
    Black Rice
    Brown Rice.
    Canary Seed.
    Chai (Please refer to my notes)
    Chick Peas (Garbanzo beans)
    Corn kernels
    Flax (Please read my notes)
    Garbanzo beans (Chick Peas)
    Grass seeds (Make sure they are untreated or coated)
    Lentils (All are good)
    Maple Peas
    Mung beans
    Mustard seed
    Panicum (Millet)
    Pumpkin seeds
    Rape seeds
    Rice (wild or natural) not white rice.
    Sesame seeds
    Short grain brown rice
    Sunflower seeds
    Safflower seeds
    Wild Rice.
    And I can buy weed seed mix here. That I sprout. Also a wild bird seed mix that sprouts well.
    • Millet
    • Quinoa
    • Amaranth
    • Whole Oats
    • Barley
    • Spelt or Kamut
    • Teff
    • Brown Rice
    • Wild Rice
    • Buckwheat
    • Chai. (Chai does seem to make water go funny) So I do not add to my mix.
    Mung Beans Vitamins A, B, C and E Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Potassium Amino Acids Protein: 20%
    Adzuki Beans: Vitamins A, B, C and E High in Calcium, Iron, Niacin All Essential Amino Acids except Tryptophan Protein: 25%
    Buckwheat Groat Sprouts: Vitamins A, B, C and E Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Niacin, Phosphorus, Potassium Amino Acids Protein: 15%
    Wheat: Vitamins B, C and E Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Pantothenic Acid, Phosphorus Amino Acids Protein: 15% Brown Rice Vitamins B, C and E Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Pantothenic Acid, Phosphorus Amino Acids Protein: 15%
    The above is a guide. Not complete by any means. There are many other things that will sprout.
    WARNING: Some beans are not suitable. This is a little complicated, so please check before using any of them. Exceptions: Mung Beans, Adzuki. All others I would avoid. This includes Soy beans.
    Is it complicated? No!
    Do I need to buy any special sprouting items? No! I use one large jar to soak in. I use a strainer to drain from this after rinsing.
    Can I store them. Yes! But only for a few days in the fridge, and rinse them, preferably in ACV mix, every day at least once. After the first soaking they do need to be rinsed and drained and not left sitting in water, which may go cloudy, and may turn your sprouts. What are the dangers?I hear so much said about this. So lets look at some of the reasons why!Buying sprouts from the supermarket.
    A: These are past their prime.
    B: They may of been treated to help them look fresh. Don't Buy or use these.
    C: Old Stale things you try to sprout will go moldy in the soaking.
    D: Using Dirty Water, will cause a problem.
    E: Failing to rinse often enough will cause a problem.
    F: Trying to keep them over a few days, can cause a problem.
    DON’T SPROUT Amaranth is a very nutritious grain, however the raw hardgrain has been shown to cause liver damage in chickens. While there is no information linking it to parrots specifically, it's wise to err on the side of caution and not feed amaranth in its dry form
    (info from Gabriel Foundation). I personally don’t sprout amaranth but like to soak it with equal parts MILLET, BUCKWHEAT and QUINOA overnight, drain, rinse, drain, just cover with filtered water and cook about 10 minutes until all water is absorbed. DON'T SPROUT There is some controversy about sprouting ALFALFA. If you do sprout this seed you want to make sure you grow it so that it looks like the sprouts you see in stores. The unsprouted seed contains the toxin canavanine
    (info from Gabriel Foundation). The organic green powder form of Alfalfa ,dehydrated from the green of the plant grown in the earth, may be superior to alfalfa sprouts in nutrition. Alfalfa plants have extremely deep roots so they mine the earth for nutrients which are then expressed in their foliage. That nutrient density would not occur in the sprouts grown in containers. I often use alfalfa powder as an excellent mineral supplement especially in the presence of calcium/magnesium/vita D3supplementation.
    DON'T SPROUT Large beans: Anasazi, Black, Kidney, Lima, Navy, Pinto and Soy are not suggested for sprouting for parrots. These legumes may cause toxicity and are difficult to digest. If you choose to serve these to your bird they MUST be soaked for a minimum of 8 hours, well drained and beans rinsed very well, then cooked by bringing them to a full boil, boiling uncovered for 10 minutes, covered and simmered for another 20 minutes at least (info from Gabriel Foundation).
    DON'T SPROUT Sorghum could be harmful when sprouted..
    "Beyond what I sprout, I personally do not feed any cooked beans to my parrots, no matter how they are prepared and cooked" "I used to sprout Mung Beans mainly with a few others now and then."Why! I have never seen a problem and have sprouted them for many years. Only ever sprouted enough for a few days and only served them from soak to tails just over the half inch long. Then threw any left away. But as I have more birds and I wanted to add variety, looked to step things up. I looked at what was available here in NZ. The bird Barn do their own. Soak & Sprout Mix. Not sure what they list in them. Top Flight do what seems a good Soak & Sprout mix. The only things that put me off. The Kibbled things in this. I mean anything kibbled is not there as a sprout is it. But they were good enough to give me a full list of ingredients and all the produce in there is claimed New Zealand grown, so not treated in any way. This ensures viability. I wanted to have control, so I went shopping, and shopping, and even today I still keep an eye out for new things to try. I know most if not all produce coming in to the country is treated in some way or another, to sanitize. Normally heated treated. This can effect the viability for them to grow. Plus old stale stuff will not sprout or at least have poor germination rate. Where to find good fresh viable seed, grain, peas, and beans. I do have to look around. Some come from my wholesale seed supply, some come from a naturals food counter at my local supermarket, from a health store and others I find at my local market. Chinese supply. So I decided to start off, instead of using a total mix, I would sprout each in different jars, so that if any were not going to work I could throw away. And today I still always try to sprout any new ones before adding them to the mix. I did find Soy Beans, but after a bit of research stopped. Just not worth the risk. Probably ok in small amounts. But there are plenty of known good seeds to use. Flax is an interesting one. When soaked the times I have tried, the water goes like jelly. I am told you just wash off and they will sprout. Hum! I just add them to the normal seeds mix now ground up.
    When sprouting the simple thing to do is. Feel, Smell, Taste. These three things will tell you what is good and what is bad. Commercial mixes.Topflight Soak & Sprout. (NZ) Some Ideas That do work. Simple mesh lids you screw on a jar is the most basic and does work. Online you can buy a simple set up of two plastic containers. In USA these are as cheap as at $13us Aussy a guy wants $35au, and here a guy is trying to sell these at $40. Same product.
    A few known issues. One that did come up was lack of air circulation, in one commercial unit. You do not need to use warm water or keep them warm in the process. And I am sure this has caused issues with some people trying to sprout. Funny as some commercial ones do have or promote heating. Unless you live in an extreme cold climate this is not a good idea, as bacteria breeds very quickly.
    Home Made. Johnny King has the optimum low cost sprouters.These are drink bottles with a cut out and one lid he drilled holes in. There are loads of simple ideas. If you want to try you hand all you need is a bowl and a sieve. Soak in the bowl for 12 to 24hrs. Remember to rinse every 6hrs. Then drain and leave in sieve in bowl. You do not need any light or any heat. Depending where you are and what you are trying to sprout you should see results from two days to 4 days. The Method I use. I keep all my seed in separate bags in a sealed container. This is due to, if any are contaminated (Pantry Moth or non viable) I can throw them away and have not messed up all my good seed. As some of the things I sprout take longer times that others. I will start with maize and grass seed ( and it looks like the rice will go into this class) on the first day. Soaking in a large jar. After 24hrs I will put in the rest of the seeds, grains, peas and beans. Rinsing twice a day. Once I am happy they have all soaked enough they go into the container to rinse and drain. As soon as I see them starting to sprout, they will go into the fridge to slow them down and I can keep them for 4days max. Any left after that I throw out for the wild birds. One of the best discussions on all things sprouts can be found on Avian Avenue http://forums.avianavenue.com/index.php?threads/sprouting-easy-or-complicated.159438/

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