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Parronting is a lot like motherhood..

MARILYN CEDENO

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I hate ignoring Roxie when she's displaying undesirable behavior. It hurts my feelings to close her cage and walk away from her. But, like a child, I have to reinforce good behavior and let her know that she is not the boss. I think the vet really convinced me of this fact. We'll get no where if I keep rewarding her after she bites me. I'm learning to teach her.. but I don't always enjoy the method.
 

LaSelva

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"Good" and "bad" are human constructs and not appropriate for describing the behaviors of captive wild animals.

1) Starting with our interpretation of ourselves as their parents (or even "companions")....

In the wild (and in our homes) parrots form mate bonds: With the exception being juveniles, the basic unit of flock structure is the bonded pair. The members of mated pairs stay close together throughout the year, except for the weeks during which adult females are egglaying, incubating, or tending small young. Even in flight, members remain side by side and this is common accross genera.

I'll quote Michael Doolen, DVM

"In the case of the pet bird that is imprinted and bonded to a human as a baby, the initial parental bond sometimes begins to transition to a mate bond. This would never happen in the natural setting. This is aberrant behavior that would not be optimal in most cases. First of all, the parent already has a mate bond with the other parent and in most bird flocks (where monogamy is practiced) the rule about adultery is similar to our own in this respect. We (and they) don’t choose an offspring as a mate unless there simply is no other choice and the other parent is not present. Secondly, this would not be optimal from a genetic standpoint as it can lead to a greater probability of genetic imperfections which would ultimately reduce the probability of reproductive success and thereby species survival. Natural selection, by trial and error, controls this very tightly over time in the natural setting. Birds nearly always have enough choice to be able to mate-bond with a similar age flock member that is unrelated. In the tiny human/bird flocks that are the homes of pet bird owners, there is often little or no choice. Third, it has been observed in many species that individuals will tend to select mates based on displays of strength. This is seen in the form of physical attributes as well as behavioral challenges. Witness the mountain sheep who charge each other, repeatedly butting heads until one finally gives up. The winner gets the choice of female mate. A bird that has already reached this dominance class and has achieved reproductive success would not be likely to select or accept an offspring as a mate that is in a lower class and has not worked their way up the dominance structure and earned the right to select a stronger mate. It would mean less likelihood that the parent would be able, with this younger and weaker individual, to continue with optimum reproductive success. In the situation where the bird is also very over dependent on parental protection and insecure, these aberrant relationships are especially damaging. The transition to a mate bond is not complete and there is a blend that results in a bond that is partly parental and partly a mate relationship. Owners often have experiences when their bird begins to regurgitate and feed them or begin to display sexual behaviors or masturbate on parts of the owner’s body. This is not to be confused with the bird that masturbates on an inanimate object or feeds an object or mirror. These are displaced behaviors that involve objects that are taking the place of an otherwise unavailable mate."



2) On why it's wrong to let baby’s “cry it out,” in other words, to ignore cries for attention so that the behavior extinguishes. The reasoning for why it's wrong to do this with human children also applies to other animals, such as birds (Gifts of the Crow covers the avain aspect of this for those interested). The following is taken from a parenting e-mail, if one focuses on the bolded parts it’ll sound very familiar……

Parent: “He’s got to learn that we don’t come to him every time he cries. Janet totally indulged him those first few months.” Keith continues, “But we are in charge. We are the parents. He’s got to learn his place.”

Relative: “You mean, you purposefully let him cry…”

Tyler’s little body, covered in sweat and tears, soon exhausts itself from relentlessly crying out in panic, anger, and despair. Due to the mechanism of self-preservation, his body shuts down his conscious self and falls into a forced sleep.

CIO, also known as “controlled crying,” is an “extinction method” of ending – “extinguishing” --the cuing for attention, help, nourishment, hydration, support, and loving, physical comfort that is programmed into the biology of young mammals. (neurochemically it works the same in birds so maybe it should read young vertebrates)

While popularized by Dr. Richard Ferber in his 1985 book, “Solve Your Child’s Sleep Problem,” advocates of CIO date back to pre-Ferber days. In his 1946 classic entitled “Baby and Child Care,” Dr. Benjamin Spock advised parents to "say good night affectionately but firmly, walk out of the room, and don't go back."

This “don’t go back” approach perfectly describes CIO in its “unmodified” or “total extinction” form. Some pediatricians who subscribe to this method of CIO advise parents to shut the door to their baby or toddler’s room and not open it again for a full twelve-hour period. The only caveat to this involves assuming nighttime parenting duties if the child is physically ill. Yet, throwing up due to the stress of nocturnal abandonment doesn’t constitute a sign of physical illness and parents are advised by proponents of “total extinction” CIO to clean up the vomit promptly without touching the child or displaying emotion.

In its “modified extinction” form, CIO advocates argue that parents should leave a baby or toddler alone to cry to sleep. But this stressful experience is best practiced when punctuated with intermittent, and increasingly less frequent, check-ins from the caregiver. The intention of such visits is to persuade the little one verbally, or with minimal physical touch, that their nighttime expression of distress, thirst, and/or panic will not lead to the comfort being sought.

In both methods of CIO described above, babies and/or toddlers are repeatedly left alone to fall into cycles of sleep. Over time, they learn not to signal to their caregivers as the bonds of attachment fray.

Recent research conducted at the University of North Texas clearly reveals that the (stress hormone) cortisol levels of babies left alone to CIO remain at unnaturally high levels even days after they learn to stop crying/cuing for help. However, the cortisol levels of mothers --which register as abnormally high when their babies cry -- return to normal levels in the silence. At this point, mothers and babies are no longer biologically in sync. The mothers assume all is well; they interpret their babies’ silence as proof that their little ones have learned to self-soothe. Yet, physiologically babies can’t self-soothe. Rather, CIO teaches them to panic silently and detach from those whom nature intends for them to trust.

Sarah Ockwell-Smith, a psychotherapist, doula, and UK-based author of the soon-to-be published book, “The Gentle Sleep Book: A Guide for Calm Babies, Toddlers and Pre-Schoolers” argues that the erroneous pursuit of a baby that self-soothes profoundly misleads parents. She writes: “You are categorically not leaving your baby to ‘soothe,’ you are leaving him to cry, even if it is only for periods of two minutes at a time… Is it possible to train a baby or a toddler to not call out for their parents when they are in need? Yes, it is, but this is categorically not indicative of an infant who is happy, calm and soothed.”

http://www.phillyvoice.com/screaming-sleep/

"Recent research conducted at the University of North Texas clearly reveals that the (stress hormone) cortisol levels of babies left alone to CIO remain at unnaturally high levels even days after they learn to stop crying/cuing for help. However, the cortisol levels of mothers --which register as abnormally high when their babies cry -- return to normal levels in the silence. At this point, mothers and babies are no longer biologically in sync."


I want to compare this quote from the above linked article on human children to what is said in relation to birds by scientists.....

From "The Bird of Prey Management Series: Healthcare" found at Mike'sFalconry.com:

Why is stress bad for birds?

"When birds are stressed they release a hormone called cortisol which depresses the immune system leaving the bird open to infections which under normal circumstances would probably be harmless. In the wild, stressful events are normally sporadic, and so cortisol is released only briefly. However in captivity the stressful events are normally prolonged resulting in cortisol being released continually and the birds immune function being depressed for long periods."

More on stress: The "cost of the stress" | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum


On the effects of social isolation, from "Gifts of the Crow," by John Marzluff and Tony Angell (this can apply to how we understand screaming):

"Like food, companionship is rewarding to a social animal."

"Hormones (Mesotocin, Vasotocin) motivate the seeking of a companion in social animals (birds). Alone, a young animal gives distress calls and seeks companionship, even if it is risky. When a social partner is found, typically a parent or sibling, is found, the cries dissipate and calm returns. Acquiring a social partner after isolation causes endorphins to be released that then bind to neurons of the septum, striatum, preoptic area, thalamus, amygdala, and hypothalamus. This opioid reward replaces emotional distress with comfort and pleasure. Endorphins are important to the organization of reward seeking behaviors like affiliation just as they are to other reward-seeking behaviors like foraging, sex, and play. A young lone crow or raven would be highly motivated to alleviate its stress by finding a buddy."

The book makes comparisons to parrots as similar in intelligence throughout, for example: "In fact, parrots' forebrains outsize even the biggest brained corvids."

As vertebrates (and related) we have homologous similarities with regards to our needs as social animals - among other emotions. The highly social nature of parrots indicates that the advice given by parrot "behaviorists" (to ignore unwanted calls for attention so that they "extinguish") is actually advice that is contradictory to captive avian welfare.

I also recommend Temple Grandin PhD's, and Jonathan Balcombe PhD's books as they cover similar subject matter. As does "Parrots of the Wild."
 
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JLcribber

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Motherhood is way easier. :)
 

LaSelva

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Yea, it's ONE word.

If only the work of some PhD's lent itself to bumper stickers so easily! :( But if we bring a wild animal into our homes we are obligated to understand it, not label its behaviors according to our convenience. Case in point...biting. Although poorly defined in human terms, it is a natural communicative behavior in parrots.
 
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LaSelva

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Got to see the sunrise this morning (here in Florida) due to Daylight Savings Time, turning the clocks forward last night - it was fiery and beautiful. I was wondering if it's like this every morning. I'm sitting in the driver's side of my car with the door open right now and I can hear the early-morning vocalizations of probably many species of birds.

Studies on the vocalizations of parrots reveal that unique messages are conveyed through minor variations (frequency modulation, duration, repetition) given to calls that sound more or less the same to us.

In the Amazon...

It's a foggy morning and there's a flock of parrots getting ready to leave for the day from their roosting tree. Here they are chattering, preening themselves, etc. An unseen pair that has already left from another tree flies through the air uttering their usual in-flight vocalizations.

The birds in the tree fall silent and listen. Although they cannot see the pair through the fog they know who they are. They know which direction they are headed in (as the source of the sound is moving) as well as the speed that they are traveling. The birds in the tree know why the flighted pair took off as take off vocalizations (that carry for long distances) convey specific meanings as to the reason for takeoff - could be that a predator showed up, displacement by another bird, etc. In this case it's obviously because they were leaving to forage.

I would imagine that if there are studies on body language, including biting, that these studies would reveal something quite similar. That, for example, lunging, nipping, and biting, coupled with vocalizations convey intricate meaning in interactions with conspecifics. Maybe our human eye simply cannot perceive the quick actions and reactions facilitated by their neurology? We do know that their nervous systems are fine-tuned to threats in their environment that we humans cannot perceive. Another factor, perhaps, is that our innate social body language (as primates) is so vastly different from theirs.

Whatever the case we haven't breached the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their language system. Yet what we do know is astounding - they name their babies!

There's not a person on this forum that would disagree that they are highly intelligent creatures. Yet, in practice, it doesn't seem that this is understood in its proper context. We rationalize their state of captivity for them - perhaps afraid to consider what it might be like from their perspective. Or afraid to contrast the life they are meant for (the one in which their adaptations are relevant) to what is convenient for us.

Placing this creature in a cage and walking away from it somehow counts as good advice in connecting with an alien life form whose language and meanings we don't understand. As does categorizing their complex behaviors into either "acceptable" or "unacceptable. " Is this human vanity? That we don't understand their world and yet now that we have brought them into ours (as our surrogate children) they must view themselves as such. Because our world is worth understanding but there's isn't? It seems that bird keeping has gotten to the point we no longer allow them the dignity of what they are. Unfortunately I feel that they will continue to pay a heavy price for our intellectual laziness.


...and this of course is not aimed personally at the original poster of this thread. I'm just sitting, contemplating these relevant things.
 
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JLcribber

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Is this human vanity?
In its worst form. Egotism and self indulgence contribute their fair share. And don't forget apathy.

Did I mention how much this time change sucks? :D
 
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LaSelva

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Well I am looking forward to longer days. I hate coming home from work and having little daylight left.
 

MARILYN CEDENO

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Egotism and self indulgence contribute their fair share. And don't forget apathy
I've sat by and observed as you returned to my post on numerous occasions to share your (very lengthy) viewpoints and I can't help but to feel that I may have offended you to some degree. Not sure how, but it's very obvious. First, please understand that having a parrot in my home does nothing for my ego. She is not a possession but rather has become a very important part of my family. Is she a bird that belongs she in the wild? I say most definitely, yes! But I cannot give her that. It's impossible. So I am doing my very best to provide the best life for her that I possibly can. Am I a parrot expert? Never claimed to be but I'm far from "intellectually lazy". I am simply taking pointers from people who have experience with Greys and mixing and matching to figure out what will work for her. I am very patient with her. She eats very well. She is cared for by a well respected avian vet. She plays and interacts with us. I am doing everything in my capacity as a human to make sure she has a happy, fulfilling life. She is not a poor, lonely Grey locked in a cage.
 

JLcribber

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I've sat by and observed as you returned to my post on numerous occasions to share your (very lengthy) viewpoints and I can't help but to feel that I may have offended you to some degree. Not sure how, but it's very obvious. First, please understand that having a parrot in my home does nothing for my ego. She is not a possession but rather has become a very important part of my family. Is she a bird that belongs she in the wild? I say most definitely, yes! But I cannot give her that. It's impossible. So I am doing my very best to provide the best life for her that I possibly can. Am I a parrot expert? Never claimed to be but I'm far from "intellectually lazy". I am simply taking pointers from people who have experience with Greys and mixing and matching to figure out what will work for her. I am very patient with her. She eats very well. She is cared for by a well respected avian vet. She plays and interacts with us. I am doing everything in my capacity as a human to make sure she has a happy, fulfilling life. She is not a poor, lonely Grey locked in a cage.
I'm sorry. My posts have nothing to do with you at all. Seriously. Just cranky old me spouting my opinionated views. Absolutely no disrespect intented. :hug8:

I was responding to David mostly. :)
 
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LaSelva

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John, she quoted you but I think she was talking about me.

Marilyn, when you invoke implementing the advice of others (your vet) as you did in your original post then you open the thread up to a discussion on the overall "climate" of aviculture. Extinction bursts, good and bad behavior, etc. I was responding to an attitude that can be seen forum-wide. You simply captured it in the few lines that you wrote.

I'm in full agreement that there are many chores involved in bird keeping for those who keep and cherish them. But, as per my postings above, to force these creatures into the unfamiliar role of "featherd child" is to go down the road of abuse (we don't do it with other wild animals). Insofar as misunderstanding leads to a frustrated (stressed) animal.

There is no doubt that I find that type of treatment of a voiceless being offensive (again, not you personally). Nor do I have a high opinion of self-appointed "behaviorists" who preach and promote (even sell) such attitudes. As per my posts I prefer to promote, and quote, those whose research is giving us a clearer picture of the inner lives of animals. As well as any related implications to Captive Animal Welfare. Like I said before, you can't capture this in a bumper sticker.

Let's forget about where they belong for now and just focus on where they are "from," and what that means. Consider their ecology, their adaptations, their genetically encoded adaptive responses to stimuli (encountered only in their natural habitat). Behavioral responses that evolved over millions of years in the wild and that may not serve them in our living rooms. Let's consider that captivity, or elements of it, might go beyond their adaptive threshold (to the point they can't cope), etc. And back to the original point, that a captive wild animal may not share our notion of its place in our home.
 
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Peppo

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I'm in full agreement that there are many chores involved in bird keeping for those who keep and cherish them. But, as per my postings above, to force these creatures into the unfamiliar role of "featherd child" is to go down the road of abuse (we don't do it with other wild animals).
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The comparison is semantics, FID is used throughout this forum by people who truly care for thier parrots, dare I say fids. Comparing to "abuse" is taking it a bit too far.
 

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I'm in full agreement that there are many chores involved in bird keeping for those who keep and cherish them. But, as per my postings above, to force these creatures into the unfamiliar role of "featherd child" is to go down the road of abuse (we don't do it with other wild animals). Insofar as misunderstanding leads to a frustrated animal.
We do..we do it to other wild animals ...the reptile industry is much worse than the bird industry mainly I think because people don't think reptiles have brains ..they think they can put them in a rubbermade container in a shelving unit and they will be good with no stimuli ...people treat them like they are their brainless lil puppy dogs .... I have seem people love on them and kiss them and believe that they love them back yet keep them in tiny cages only to be pulled out to be loved on some more ...or there are the ones that think they can live cage free and let them sleep with them and truly treat them like they are their children ....and then wonder why the animals bites them or tries to eat them in some of the worst cases :(
 

LaSelva

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Thank you for bringing that up - it speaks volumes to the idea that although we may love our pets we can still be misguided in our approach.

The first time that I saw iguanas in the wild was in Old San Juan, Puerto Rico. The lively iguanas I witnessed immediately brought to mind sad images of pet store iguanas in fish tanks.
 
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