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Not sure of next steps - 17 year old sun conure

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RebeccaP

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In early August, my 17 year old sun conure started spending more time on the bottom of her cage. She has always gone down there to hunt around but she didn't seem well. She continued to be less and less active and when I noticed that her abdomen was enlarged, I took her to an avain vet on August 18.

These were the findings after an exam/x-ray:

Age: 17 years
Weight: 106 g
Abdomen: palpable fluid, enlarged abdominal organs (liver)
Heart: grade III/IV heart murmur
Respiratory: increased rate and effort
Muscoskeletal: feather destruction of coverts and wing primaries. Piching on legs and tops of thighs.

Problems / Diagnosis: heart murmur, organ enlargement, ascites

Recommendations: Xrays show severe liver enlargement with loss of normal heart/liver silhouette. There is fluid building up in the abdomen making it difficult to breath.

The vet called a few days later and said that her immune system is shot. She said she concluded that Willie probably had cancer.

She prescribed metronidazole and she improved dramatically, but we have experienced a roller-coaster - some days she seemed completely well, other days she seemed near death.

After the first round of meds ran out (14 days), she went from being very active/happy to being very sickly acting. I called the vet and she suggested that I come and pick up another prescription of metronidazole. We have been administering it every day ever since and she has been doing fairly well. Her droppings are green, white, and contain some mucus.

Ok. Here's where it gets strange.

Because Willie was spending so much time on the bottom of the cage, I fixed a little hiding place made of old pillowcases and baby blankets. While I out of the country for a couple of weeks, my husband called and made a very surprising announcement. One morning he looked in her little hiding place and she had laid an egg! Up until that point, 17 years into her life, we were not 100% sure which sex she was!

The vet recommended that we remove the egg but said nothing about the "nest area".

Her weight has fluctuated between 106, to 112, and back down to 106. The covert feathers have come back in but they do not sit completely flat. The swelling in her abdoment has gone down slightly.

I have basically not received any further advice. The vet seems to be sticking to the idea that she has cancer and that I should keep her on the metronidazole.

Can anyone recommend other tests we should be doing? Should her nest been removed?

The vet I am consulting is an avian vet.
 

RebeccaP

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P.S. When she was first seen by a vet, there were undigested particles in her droppings. That is no longer happening.
 

birdlvr466

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Wow Rebecca. Well first of all the egg should NOT be removed because that will cause her to lay more eggs. There are many more experienced people on this forum who will be along to help you and can give you more advice than I can but I am kind of surprised the vet would suggest to remove the egg and also that this was not noted in the exam. :confused: Did your vet say anything about Milk Thistle for the liver issue or Aloe Detox? Along with the heart murmur I am not sure so I would rather have some more experienced members try to help you. Someone will be along here shortly. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
 

Archiesmom

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Wow yes, I wouldn't remove the egg, you run the risk of her laying another to replace it which could put an even greater strain on her body. I also can't believe your vet wouldn't mention the egg in the exam? How much time has elapsed since the original x-ray scan?
 

RebeccaP

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Thanks for the responses. The x-rays were taken on August 18, the egg was laid on September 28. When I asked if she should have seen the egg when the x-rays were taken, she informed me that an egg can be formed in 48 hours. She has not produced another egg since it was removed on the September 29.
 

Anne & Gang

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NOPE, absolutely do not remove that egg..and in my opinion, you need a second opinion ....if that vet couldn't detect an egg...I have serious doubts about him/her..if you have already removed the egg, try getting a false one asap try a craft store or you can order on line birdsupplynh.com..she should actually lay 2 days apart....do NOT REMOVE....keep could be 25-30 days before she abandons..provide her with extra calcium..cuttlebone, broccoli, calci rich foods....or calci boost....make sure the egg is not brittle (if you still have it)....at any rate, get second opinion please....
 

Anne & Gang

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also the fluid build up could be because of a reproductive problem...older hens often have this problem and it comes with a whole different set of treatments etc...
 

RebeccaP

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I still have the egg. It was small and had a hard shell. She passed it on her own. She basically ignored it (didn't sit on it).
 

Anne & Gang

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put it back please....they sometimes ignore the first egg she may ignore it and then decide to sit on it all of a sudden..
 

atvchick95

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I'm the complete opposite - If a bird of mine lays an egg - specially a female on her own and no male around - I remove it and re arrange the cage I've not had them "replace it!"

at this age and her ailing health Eggs are NOT something you want her to lay or even incubate!

Remove the nest too, if the bottom of the cage was that uncomfortable she wouldn't of been down there anyway

The only time I've ever had a bird lay an egg after I removed eggs- well i didn't even remove the eggs I removed the bird from a breeding cage and put her back in the community cage she'd lay 1 more and that was it - never paid attention to it most of the time i found it on a cage floor broke or It fell through a grate and was in the tray.

I've never had any problems removing eggs Even with breeding birds, I remove dud eggs all the time. I've had several females lay a entire clutch of duds, I remove them all at the same time, and they do not replace them they go out in the cage and actually stay out of the nest box for up to 2 weeks if not more before they start to nest again

but who knows i could be wrong, I just know with my birds they have never replaced eggs I took away.
 

RebeccaP

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Yesterday evening I peeked into her cage and she seemed to be having a hard time so I rushed her to a nearby vet (the avian vet was already closed, the next closest one is an hour away). The vet said he could feel another egg. He said she was too weak to sedate her (due to her other illnesses), and trying to help it out without sedating her would probably kill her.

Got her back home and within 30 minutes she laid the egg. She seems a little shaky this morning - using her beak in addition to her two legs to move around the cage. Eating and drinking normally. Took a huge poop.

Left the egg there this time.

Will talk to her avian vet this morning.

I love this little bird so much -I hand fed her as a baby - she has lived in Florida, Colorado, Pennsylvania and back in Florida with me. She has basically been with me my entire adult life.

The reason I left the "nesting" area there was because she seemed to be too weak to perch except when she ate and pooped. If I take it out, she will just hang around down there with nothing. For some reason that seems harsh to me.

I appreciate the advice - please don't hesitate to chime in if you have any suggestions.

Rebecca
 

JLcribber

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NOPE, absolutely do not remove that egg..and in my opinion, you need a second opinion ....if that vet couldn't detect an egg...
The X ray was taken over a month and a half before the egg was layed. The vet would not have noticed an egg because there was no egg that long before.

It "does" only take around 48 hours to produce an egg.

I'm glad you put that egg back. Hopefully she will quit at 2. It's very important now that she gets proper nutrition and especially the proper vitamins, minerals and Amino acids and that those things are given in the proper ratios to each other so the bird can actually utilize them. One does not work without the proper amount of the others. Calcium, Vitamin D3 and phosphorus being the most important. Ask your vet if a "complete" supplement might help.
 

RebeccaP

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Talked to the avian vet. She has prescribed a calcium supplement, milk thistle (for her liver), along with her antibiotics. She says to leave the nest / egg in place. Stop all petting of her back, under her wings, etc. and feeding her through her cage bars (between my husband and I we had been doing all three). Also to make sure that she is in a dark area for 10-12 hours a day.

She said that her difficulty walking is due to the pressure of the egg on the nerves leading to her feet for a sustained period yesterday. In most birds, this resolves itself within a day or two. In some cases permanent damage is done. We will just have to wait and see.

Please send positive thoughts her way.
 

allison

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What kind of diet is she on? A bird with liver disease should be getting a low fat diet. Roudybush actually makes a special pellet for birds with liver problems.
Roudybush Direct
Your vet can order it (it's veterinarian only).
If they can't get it for some reason, the low fat pellet is also a good option.
Other than that she should be getting a lot of fresh food.
Here are some foods that are good for the liver this is for humans, but it translates to birds as well, just avoid the onions which can be toxic to birds. Garlic can be offered in moderation.
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/liver-foods.shtml
 
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RebeccaP

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Willie is not doing well at all. She's struggling to walk/perch. I'm giving her calcium supplements. This is awful.
 

mizbirdy

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Oh no Rebecca! Do you have an emergency number for a vet?
 

JLcribber

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Willie is not doing well at all. She's struggling to walk/perch. I'm giving her calcium supplements. This is awful.
You should get her back to a vet. A different vet (avian of course) who has a fresh perspective and for the second opinion.

If she has some kind of organ enlargement as the report stated then that could be a factor in her not being able to walk or perch well.

This is pretty serious and with birds you can't take a "wait and see" approach. Waiting too long could be "too late". :(
 

RebeccaP

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Willie is doing much better today. She was up and around her cage - climbing all around the perimeter "walls", eating and drinking and pooping. She is still not great when it comes to walking on flat surfaces (bottom of cage) but seems to do ok on her perches / branches today.

After each period of exercise, she has gone back down to her nest, is laying flat on her belly, with her head resting forward and her eyes closed.

I wish I knew if this behavior is normal behavior when parrots are nesting on an egg, if she's just exhausted from the whole ordeal, or is getting worse.

Can anyone fill me in on what normal nesting posture is?

Rebecca
 

JLcribber

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The nesting posture you described is normal but the "always sleeping" part is not.
 

Anne & Gang

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well hens do need a lot of rest and they will sit and guard the egg...tell me, are the eggs the same size and hard...if not, then she definitely needs that calci supplement..and taking the nest away should only take place after she abandons those eggs..also, normally the nerves will get damaged or pinched if the hen has trouble passing the egg..which can also lead to egg binding...so it sounds like she was having trouble and now is ok...but I still think she needs to see an avian vet asap and a different one...
 
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