Urgent Liver Problems - URGENT

[glxpassat]

My 21 year old male blue front amazon has had liver issues in the past. And currently his liver enzymes are really high. We are awaiting some additional blood tests, and one would be for the wasting away disease (WHICH I'M PRAYING HARD THATS NOT IT). He is extremely underweight and was in a lot of pain before, and I was given gabapentin , tramadol, and an anti-inflammatory. He is much calmer currently. I also have been giving him milk thistle; which usually in the past helps him. My question is I've been reading up on aloe vera detox. It seems like an amazing thing on their livers. I tried asking the vet, but they couldn't read the link I gave them about the aloe vera detox, I was emailed back they couldn't click on the link. So I emailed the info copying and pasting it into the email. Didn't get a reply yet, and now its Friday night. I have since bought the aloe vera detox by "Lilly of the Desert," but thought I would ask you guys before I give it to him. It's a large 32 oz plus container, and wouldn't know exactly how to give it to him? TIA
P.S., here is a link to video's of how he's currently acting. Sydney - YouTube the most current video is the end of the playlist.

 

[Birdbabe]

Aloe vera detox, 47 grams peeled natural aloe, cut it up, place in 4 cups purified water for 24 hours in the fridge, strain, and serve this as the drinking water, change two or three times a day,,you'll need to make more as needed, or, if you cant do that, then get " Lily of the desert" aloe juice from " SPROUTS " or a health food store, it is served as is from the bottle. This is maitanence,,,not a cure, but, should help. Fresh dandelion leaves and flowers, no pesticides, will help maintain also. Prayers and hugs

 

[enigma731]

Doing a detox will decrease the efficacy of the medications you're giving, so I really wouldn't do anything until your vets respond.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Those videos are from 2013 and one from 2018, early in the year - so much can't be said about his condition now. Regardless, the symptoms don't appear to be similar to any seizures that I've seen. They are more like extreme discomfort in his feet and legs - does he have arthritis? and pain and discomfort in the back half of his body - consistent with a swollen liver.

For liver support Milk Thistle extract and SAMe are common along with the proper diet.

Are you taking Sydney to an avian Veterinarian? Has he had a CBC, Chem Panel and xray? Has he had cultures done on his skin - either skin scrapings or biopsy and histology/pathology?

In the most current video, Sydney appears to be severely underweight - do you know why he is so underweight?

 

[glxpassat]

Aloe vera detox, 47 grams peeled natural aloe, cut it up, place in 4 cups purified water for 24 hours in the fridge, strain, and serve this as the drinking water, change two or three times a day,,you'll need to make more as needed, or, if you cant do that, then get " Lily of the desert" aloe juice from " SPROUTS " or a health food store, it is served as is from the bottle. This is maitanence,,,not a cure, but, should help. Fresh dandelion leaves and flowers, no pesticides, will help maintain also. Prayers and hugs

Wait are you saying the bottle stuff that says "aloe detox" is only maintenance? And are you talking about getting a fresh aloe leaf (they sell fresh aloe vera leaves at the market) and cutting up?

 

[glxpassat]

Those videos are from 2013 and one from 2018, early in the year - so much can't be said about his condition now. Regardless, the symptoms don't appear to be similar to any seizures that I've seen. They are more like extreme discomfort in his feet and legs - does he have arthritis? and pain and discomfort in the back half of his body - consistent with a swollen liver.

For liver support Milk Thistle extract and SAMe are common along with the proper diet.

Are you taking Sydney to an avian Veterinarian? Has he had a CBC, Chem Panel and xray? Has he had cultures done on his skin - either skin scrapings or biopsy and histology/pathology?

In the most current video, Sydney appears to be severely underweight - do you know why he is so underweight?

Yes, as I mentioned in my original post we are waiting for all the tests to come back. One of the tests are for the PDD (wasting away disease) suspected because of all his symptoms. He has always been underweight since obtaining him 7 years ago. He also has had problems similar to this that he was put on medicine, which eventually things would go away. I give him milk thistle when I notice weird symptoms, and usually he gets better. I've had him go to a local avian vet, but I swear they dont know anything. This new vet Is very well known, not local, but that's ok. Anything to figure out what is going on. He had xrays as-well. But all I know from all the blood work, and stays is his liver enzymes are really high

 

[Birdbabe]

Yes. Fresh aloe..and as @Hankmacaw says, Milk thistle will help also. Both are natural and non toxic .. do consult your vet with what you want to do, ...again, prayers and hugs..

 

[glxpassat]

Yes. Fresh aloe..and as @Hankmacaw says, Milk thistle will help also. Both are natural and non toxic .. do consult your vet with what you want to do, ...again, prayers and hugs..

I have been giving him milk thistle already. But I tried consulting them on Friday, and never got an update on it. So I started giving him a little of the aloe vera detox.

I can't wait until Monday. If he's having liver failure and such, I heard this stuff can correct the problem? I've done a lot of reading in avian forums, birds that where dying, owner decided to try it, and the bird did a 180 in recovery. I dont want to lose my baby.

I did notice the first time in all the years of owning him, his cheek/s aren't super swollen with air(yes I took him to the vet) for a bunch of years I simply thought that's how they where supposed to look. I then met another blue front; noting cheeks weren't puffy. I then did a lot of research, took him to the vet, and no answers.

I'm assuming it has something to do with the anti inflammatory medication he's on? So strange.

 

[enigma731]

Just know that by giving the detox, you are effectively cancelling out the other medications you're giving. Hopefully that tradeoff is a good one.

 

[Hankmacaw]

If his liver is compromised, he should be getting Milk Thistle every day, without fail. My jasper's liver was compromised by a long session on Itraconazole for Aspergillosis and she has been on daily Milk Thistle for at least 15 years. If she doesn't get her Milk Thistle for a few days, her urine starts to turn yellow and her feces puff up.

If, and I say if, his liver is swollen from liver disease, then he needs the anti-inflammatory to keep the liver from swelling and crowding his lungs and heart. Can you tell us which anti-inflammatory he is on. Metacam, Celebrex, Gabapentin (Conclusion: Gabapentin morphine alone and also in combination produce an anti-inflammatory effect. Gabapentin was superior to morphine and also the combination is helpful in reducing the paw volume in formalin induced rats paw edema.) Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Morphine and Gabapentin, Alone and in Combination, in Rats - SciAlert Responsive Version There are other anti-inflammatories, but these are the ones that come to mind.

Steroids are also anti-inflammatory, BUT must be used with extreme caution in birds because they are very toxic to the LIVER.

Sydney appears as if he may have arthritis in his feet/legs - has that ever been diagnosed.

 

[Macawnutz]

Your videos claiming seizure like activity. It's not a seizure or anything close. His skin/feathers are bothering him. When he acts like that I would give him a soaking bath and it will calm him. If it does not it's pain/tingling bothering him.

He looks like my Binky when he is having a bad day.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Have you addressed Sydney's diet and determined if anything he is eating could be contributing to his liver issues? Things such as high protein, high fat and seeds are detrimental to compromised liver. This is an excellent article by Dr. Lafeber who is one of the leading vets on bird nutrition.

Nutritional Management of Liver Disease in Birds | LafeberVet

 

[glxpassat]

Your videos claiming seizure like activity. It's not a seizure or anything close. His skin/feathers are bothering him. When he acts like that I would give him a soaking bath and it will calm him. If it does not it's pain/tingling bothering him.

I'm definitely aware he isn't having seizures . It's his liver causing toxins in his brain. But the vet is suspecting the wasting away disease. And those tests, I'm waiting to hear the results.

He looks like my Binky when he is having a bad day.

 

[glxpassat]

If his liver is compromised, he should be getting Milk Thistle every day, without fail. My jasper's liver was compromised by a long session on Itraconazole for Aspergillosis and she has been on daily Milk Thistle for at least 15 years. If she doesn't get her Milk Thistle for a few days, her urine starts to turn yellow and her feces puff up.

If, and I say if, his liver is swollen from liver disease, then he needs the anti-inflammatory to keep the liver from swelling and crowding his lungs and heart. Can you tell us which anti-inflammatory he is on. Metacam, Celebrex, Gabapentin (Conclusion: Gabapentin morphine alone and also in combination produce an anti-inflammatory effect. Gabapentin was superior to morphine and also the combination is helpful in reducing the paw volume in formalin induced rats paw edema.) Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Morphine and Gabapentin, Alone and in Combination, in Rats - SciAlert Responsive Version There are other anti-inflammatories, but these are the ones that come to mind.

Steroids are also anti-inflammatory, BUT must be used with extreme caution in birds because they are very toxic to the LIVER.

Sydney appears as if he may have arthritis in his feet/legs - has that ever been diagnosed.

I don't have time to respond to the whole message, but I wanted to let you know the anti inflammatory is Doxycycline.

 

[enigma731]

That's an antibiotic. That's DEFINITELY not a med you want to be messing up. I guess I don't understand why you would do "whatever it takes" to have your bird treated by an experienced avian vet and then mess with that treatment protocol without guidance.

 

[painesgrey]

I don't have time to respond to the whole message, but I wanted to let you know the anti inflammatory is Doxycycline.

Yeah, that's an antibiotic, not an anti-inflammatory. As much as I value the insight of our fellow members, there is only so much that can be done for an animal when we don't know the clinical history. We're not vets, and even if we were, we couldn't begin to offer advice on treatments without putting our hands on the bird and seeing test results. You're interpreting your bird's symptoms, but your interpretations could very well be wrong, and treatment advice given based on wrong information can do more harm than good.

Follow your vet's advice. Don't detox.

 

[glxpassat]

Yeah, that's an antibiotic, not an anti-inflammatory. As much as I value the insight of our fellow members, there is only so much that can be done for an animal when we don't know the clinical history. We're not vets, and even if we were, we couldn't begin to offer advice on treatments without putting our hands on the bird and seeing test results. You're interpreting your bird's symptoms, but your interpretations could very well be wrong, and treatment advice given based on wrong information can do more harm than good.

Follow your vet's advice. Don't detox.

That's interesting as I was told one of the meds was an anti inflammatory, I know what gabapentin and tramadol are. So I assumed that the other was the anti inflammatory. I was in such a bad way at the vets, I had a good friend who is also with a local parrot rescue be my go to person. So they have been my liaison through all this, because I was in hysterics when I heard he most likely he had the wasting away condition. So all I know based on his blood work, liver enzymes are really high, haven't heard about his xray. And I wont get the results until the end of this coming week for the rest. But, he has gained weight. He was 425 grams, and 4 says later he is now 440 grams. That makes me happy. And I can appreciate what your saying. Thank you

 

[painesgrey]

That's interesting as I was told one of the meds was an anti inflammatory, I know what gabapentin and tramadol are. So I assumed that the other was the anti inflammatory. I was in such a bad way at the vets, I had a good friend who is also with a local parrot rescue be my go to person. So they have been my liaison through all this, because I was in hysterics when I heard he most likely he had the wasting away condition. So all I know based on his blood work, liver enzymes are really high, haven't heard about his xray. And I wont get the results until the end of this coming week for the rest. But, he has gained weight. He was 425 grams, and 4 says later he is now 440 grams. That makes me happy. And I can appreciate what your saying. Thank you

If your doctor is treating it as possible PDD/bornavirus/wasting disease, then an anti-inflammatory would certainly be part of that treatment plan. However, I can't say that I've ever heard of gabapentin (sedative) and tramadol (narcotic pain relief) ever being used for this purpose. My Quaker was on meloxicam (NSAID) for suspected PDD, but was also on antibiotics due to regurgitation and the vet was worried about aspirate pneumonia. Is it possible that you misunderstood the purpose of the doxycycline?

I cannot stress enough how important it is to communicate your concerns with your vet. You are your bird's primary advocate, and if you aren't getting the answers you're seeking or you're not understanding the diagnostic/treatment process, you need to communicate that to your vet. Any vet worth their salt is going to be happy to explain these things to you. If your vet isn't willing to, then fire them and find a new one.

 

[enigma731]

Gabapentin is also used to treat neuropathy. Given the way your bird is picking at his legs in the videos, I can see why your vet would prescribe it.

 

[Macawnutz]

So, I assume you are waiting for a ABV test result? PDD is not often accurately diagnosed until after death. The test I assume they are running is avian borna virus. Statistics are that 40% of all birds will test positive for borna virus, these birds never develop PDD. Not good enough odds for me to run that test wit out exhausting all other options.