Is there an obvious difference between hand-raised vs. parent-raised?

[Brittany0208]

The thought crossed my mind recently and I haven't been able to find any really solid information on the two and how they differ. Is there a way to tell based on behavior or is it something you'd have to know from Day 1?
Knowing very little about Java's beginning, I wonder which category he would fall under. Even though I've had him for almost a year, I'm still not sure I can consider him tamed, but I guess I use that term loosely since he's aloof with everyone and everything. I doubt he'll ever be a social butterfly that demands attention from anyone but me. He seems content when it's just him and I, and he becomes twitchy and guarded whenever there is a second person around. Anyway, thanks for all input.

 

[JLcribber]

As different as black is to white. No comparison.

There's no way to tell Java's situation after all this time and water under the bridge.

---> http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/Portals/brisbanebirdvet/pdf/BBV_The-Human-Bird-Bond.pdf

 

[Brittany0208]

---> http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/Portals/brisbanebirdvet/pdf/BBV_The-Human-Bird-Bond.pdf

Question: after reading this article, is it safe to say that a single bird can never truly be happy without another bird companion? Or that the bird has considered itself a human?
Some would say keeping a single bird is cruel, but I disagree.

 

[JLcribber]

As I always say. A solitary bird is a lonely bird. There are no solitary birds in the wild. Even though humans have damaged that bird we can teach them to be birds again.

 

[Brittany0208]

Fair enough.

 

[Monica]

I have a wild caught African Ringneck. To me, her behavior is much different than the captive raised birds I've had, even birds that have been parent raised. More skittish, more 'on alert', heck, given a choice, she'd happily fly through a window! This is different to a captive raised parrot... that, although yes, they may want to fly through a window, they don't have the same determination and will as she does. I don't know at what age she was captured (be it nest, recently fledged, or as an adult), but what I do know is that she was imported May of 2013, I've had her since May of 2014 and she was already an adult by then.

At the same time as saying that, she is the first ringneck I've had. Ringnecks, even lovingly hand raised ringnecks, do have a tendency to "go wild" if you don't train and work with them right.


Most parrots, IMO, will *ALWAYS* be happier with other parrots around, even if the two never get along! I've had conures that never got along, but they "fed" off of each other. If one was taking a bath, then the other wanted to take a bath. Very few parrots get so stressed out with another parrot around that they start to have negative behaviors... such as screaming, plucking, mutilation, biting, etc.

It's usually best to get a similar or same species if you want to have any chance of them possibly getting along, but with a vasa.... well, that's kind of tough! I'm not sure of any species that are really similar to vasas and they can be few and hard to come by. I remember the first one I met, I was 15 and my mother and I had discovered a local bird store. We are looking around at all the birds and all the supplies that they had and my mother comes across a "black bird". She's like "Monica, what is this bird?" I told her it was a vasa parrot. She was like "What?". I reiterated that it was a vasa parrot. She was amazed that a black bird could be a parrot! It wasn't colorful or pretty like all the other parrots in the store, but here she was, a vasa! And of course she had to go and confirm with the store owner and he amazed by my knowledge of what she was, he had to go point out some other species for me to name off! I even got the blue throated macaw that everyone else (adults) were calling a "baby B&G". Only one I got stuck on was the major mitchells cockatoo, which I had forgotten the name of at the time! Can't say I've really seen many since... and this vasa was eventually put into a breeding program.


The last time I saw one was last year, if I recall right. A vasa in need of a new home and being sold at a pet store. This bird was located in a different state than in the one I currently preside in.

It is interesting though how parrot keeping can vary around the world. In one country, it is illegal to hand raise birds and to clip their wings. Birds must have a minimum sized cage (even for a budgie, this would be a walk in aviary!) and if you have small species, you must have a minimum of two birds. In other countries it's completely acceptable to chain them to a play stand!



Having said all that now, I also can't recommend someone to get another parrot if they aren't mentally, physically and financially ready for another bird. At minimum, you're looking at another cage, perches, toys, dishes, extra vet bills, etc.

 

[Brittany0208]

It's usually best to get a similar or same species if you want to have any chance of them possibly getting along, but with a vasa.... well, that's kind of tough! I'm not sure of any species that are really similar to vasas and they can be few and hard to come by

If I were to get a second parrot, it would be a Vasa, but like you said, there are hard to come by. I don't think there are any species that are similar to a Vasa, so I'd be stuck up sh*t creek in that department, and even then, there's no guarantee the relationship would work. I don't know, I just hate feeling like I'm taking something from him by keeping him as a solitary bird, but at the same time, I'd be stretched incredibly thin if I even though about a second bird, regardless of size.

 

[Monica]

If you don't think you can handle it, then don't! There really is no guarantee that they would get along, but it is possible that another vasa could help out Java.

If you ever do decide to get another vasa when you are ready to, hopefully you'll be able to find one! Either one in need of a home or a breeder!

 

[Hankmacaw]

Ditto to Monica. You can only control your own behavior, so as long as you live with other people (whom you don't always se eye to eye with) Don't get another bird. If you feel the least bit insecure financially. -Don't get another bird unless you are willing to choose between it and Java. You well know how much one can cost.

Hank was a wild caught GW and Jasper was very spoiled hand raised. Hank had a lot more personality than Jasper and after a lot of work overcoming the results of him being physically abused for ten years, he became affectionate and very attached to me. Jasper is sweet and has no fear of humans, but her personality doesn't vary. No sense of humor with Jasper (Hank was a total jokester and would get mad and get happy, be sad and loving bird ) I love Jasper and she loves me back, but she is completely dependent on ME for everything.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Brittany0208]

Ditto to Monica. You can only control your own behavior, so as long as you live with other people (whom you don't always se eye to eye with) Don't get another bird. If you feel the least bit insecure financially. -Don't get another bird unless you are willing to choose between it and Java. You well know how much one can cost.

Hank was a wild caught GW and Jasper was very spoiled hand raised. Hank had a lot more personality than Jasper and after a lot of work overcoming the results of him being physically abused for ten years, he became affectionate and very attached to me. Jasper is sweet and has no fear of humans, but her personality doesn't vary. No sense of humor with Jasper (Hank was a total jokester and would get mad and get happy, be sad and loving bird ) I love Jasper and she loves me back, but she is completely dependent on ME for everything.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thank you. Knowing just how dependent Java is on me, I don't think it would be fair to get a second bird because that will more than double my workload. I'm sure the guilt of keeping him solitary will diminish with time, but he will never be alone. Maybe one day, but I'm not holding my breath for it. For now, I'll live in the moment, and cherish the bond that we have together.

 

[Begone]

I have seen a big difference.
And I will always chose parent raised before hand raised.
Parent raised - knows they are birds, don't get so needing and will always chose another parrot as best friend/mate.
Parent raised don't care so much about how you look and what you wear.

And in Sweden it's illigal to hand raise a parrot and take it away from its parents.

But do a parent raised parrot get tame enough?
Yes, they will.

 

[Brittany0208]

I have seen a big difference.
And I will always chose parent raised before hand raised.
Parent raised - knows they are birds, don't get so needing and will always chose another parrot as best friend/mate.
Parent raised don't care so much about how you look and what you wear.

And in Sweden it's illigal to hand raise a parrot and take it away from its parents.

But do a parent raised parrot get tame enough?
Yes, they will.

But couldn't it work both ways, if a parent-raised bird was kept in a single-bird home, wouldn't it eventually look for companionship in its caregiver? Thus, behaving as hand-raised? It's all very confusing.

 

[Monica]

Not necessarily, Brittany. Many people only keep one cockatiel, one lovebird, one budgie, etc... only one bird of one species. They feed it and clean the cage, but they never work *with* the bird, so the bird may always fear them. They've been given no reason to trust a human. People just assume that because they care for the animal, the animal should like them back.

I kind of equate it out to us being tiny animals and these giant creatures that we fear (spider, cockroach, moth, etc) that are hundreds/thousands of time bigger than we are are taking care of us. People who have irrational fears of these creatures may never warm up to the idea of them and just remain terrified whenever they are around. It doesn't matter if they don't ever cause us any harm, the fear is still there. Or, if you are someone who has no idea on how to train and work with an animal... gah! That'd be worse! Just a hand/claw reaching in, chasing you around and then preventing you from getting away in order to tame you... it's easy to see these birds wouldn't easily warm up to a human given those situations.

I have seen someone who bought two parent raised budgies and never worked on taming them, but they frequently let their budgies out of their cage to fly around the home. The budgies being naturally curious grew comfortable enough with their human to become "tame". Maybe not cuddly tame, but still rather tame and enjoyed human interaction!


I am kind of curious about going to Sweden or perhaps the Netherlands and see how much bird care differs over there vs here!

 

[Begone]

But couldn't it work both ways, if a parent-raised bird was kept in a single-bird home, wouldn't it eventually look for companionship in its caregiver?

Of course it will if you tame it and become friend with it. But as it still understand that it is a parrot it isn't compared to the bond the bird will create to another bird.

I am kind of curious about going to Sweden or perhaps the Netherlands and see how much bird care differs over there vs here!

You would be surprised and that's not only positive. Often animal owner's here are to much.
So if someone want to sell a cage on a forum here, their is always someone that tells that that cage is illegal to any bird. And now we are talking perhaps only 1 cm to small.
I will report if someone clip wings or other things that I think is important, but not if the bird has a 1 cm to small cage and have a lot of out of cage time.
We are not allowed to have single birds if the bird is not with you 24/7.
And we are not allowed to have smaller sleeping cages.
For an example. A budgies minimum cage is 70 cm long and for a macaw it is 360 cm long.

 

[TikiMyn]

I like this discussion!

But couldn't it work both ways, if a parent-raised bird was kept in a single-bird home, wouldn't it eventually look for companionship in its caregiver? Thus, behaving as hand-raised? It's all very confusing.

I wonder this too, I have found out from the store Henkie originally came from that he should be aviary raised. But still, he over bonded with me for a good while. So aviary raised can still overbond, but wether he thought/thinks he is a human or bird? He has Fëanor as his mate now, and no longer reguriates for me(only veeery occasionally, when he feeds Fea on my arm he gives me Some too lol!).

Well @Eloy I love that so much! Of course, reporting because a cage is one cm too small is a little bit too much.. but, better that then have birds waste away Here in the Netherlands it is illegal to hand raise, but there are still darned stores that do it I inquired about that by the goverment but never got a clear answer As to why that was allowed. Anyway, there are no other laws regarding birds. They do have recommendations which are quite good, but those are not even known by the general public. There is a big increase in people who keep clipped parrots, keep them on Java trees, at least Some to excellent enrichment and take them on walks. That is improvement over a cage blind bird at least! And there is a free flight school

 

[Cassiopejaz]

i can say that there is a diffrence kinda..ofc doesnt apply to every bird ofc

Toby was Handraised while Jack was raised by his parents. (Back then i actually had no idea that it was illegal to handraise parrots, found out after i bought Toby)

Toby is more dependant on me being there, while Jack is more independent...is it cuz how they been raised?...hard to know...but i think so...Toby bonds easier to humans while Jack doesnt...

Both are tame, but Toby doesnt wanna leave the area where i am at..while Jack gets on ur finger to get out of Cage...and then he jumps to his toys...sure he comes to me sometimes now and then but Toby never leaves my side….

Both have large Cages..very large...more than double the recommandation so they have alot of space to have fun when im at work..

 

[Sylvester]

I feel that parent raised birds are less needy, and less neurotic, than hand raised ones are.

 

[Linearis]

My parrotlet was hand-raised (I think anyway, pretty sure they used the term hand-fed which I think is the same) and she's definitely needy but also independent if that makes sense... Like if I leave the room she almost always wants to come but when she's out of her cage she doesn't need to be constantly on me, she usually likes exploring and I keep most of her toys in the cage so she sometimes goes back to play for hours without me needing to give her attention. Overall despite her upbringing I consider her pretty low maintenance and she's good at keeping herself busy.

 

[melissasparrots]

A lot depends on species and how they were raised by the breeder post weaning. In some wilder species, the difference can be night and day in some cases. To the extent of having a parent raised bird never taming down completely and not wanting anything to do with humans ever. Despite that human's best efforts to tame it. In other cases such as cockatoos, if the parent raised bird was gently tamed and has been in captivity for quite some time, it might be nearly impossible to tell the difference. Same deal with amazons in some cases. Amazons are not known for being cuddle bugs, but most will enjoy a scratch. Young amazons have a strong push toward independence and if raised with other amazons in the general area, they seem to have an innate knowledge of themselves as amazons, even when hand-fed. But they are social enough that even a wild caught bird can often tame. Its just that the parent raised bird has to go through the stress of taming. A chick does not.

Depending on the species, a hand-fed bird might be a little more likely to play, act silly and be needy. I've found that if the human is even remotely consistent about being a good companion for the bird and the bird is healthy, a hand-raised bird isn't necessarily more likely to pluck than a parent raised. But, because hand-raised birds are more comfortable in captivity, they will show a more complex range of behaviors which can include plucking if ill, uncomfortable, or drastically under stimulated. A parent raised and especially a wild caught bird is more likely to sit and suffer silently without much outward manifestations of its misery. Which tends to lead clueless animal right leaning humans to conclude that parent raised birds are happier when in fact they may not be. A lot of it is just an it depends. Personally, I like hand-fed birds that have had some post weaning time with their own species myself. They are comfortable enough in captivity, but have still had enough time with their own species to have an idea that they aren't human. I do think most birds benefit from having another bird around. Even if they do not physically interact and are not in any way related to each other. However, I don't think its a requirement. I usually go by the bird's behavior in deciding if it needs a mate, other birds just being around or if it is happy being with me as a companion.

Just as an aside, most American's have experience mainly with either hand-raised birds or wild caught birds that have been in captivity for a VERY long time. So, when someone says they prefer parent raised, take that with a grain of salt because its likely that person has never handled or personally tamed very many parent raised birds. They might be responding based on their ideals that they think or want to be true and not what they have actually found to be true with personal experience. Also, comparing a budgie or indian ringneck to a cockatoo is like comparing an apple to a turnip. So, a person with indian ring-neck experience should not make sweeping generalizations about other species.

Bottom line, enjoy your bird. Don't feel guilty unless your bird is giving you reason to feel guilty. Let your bird be your guide and be receptive to her attempts to communicate with you. Especially since you have a vasa and I'd be extremely surprised if anyone here has significant experience with both parent raised and hand-fed vasas. And vasas are just known to be different.