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I need help with Buttercup...

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quakingcanopy

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At the risk of getting some MAJOR back lash I would like to comment on the persons who find it necessary to scream "you're risking her life" and "get her to the vet" - it would be better for the people who come on here scared and worried if you just kept your thoughts to yourself. Having worked in vet offices, rescues, and humane societies for years I see the kind of fear those types of reactions instill. Yes, it's important to get the point across and encourage people who are ill equipped to deal with an emergency to seek medical help, in this case, a vet. But screaming at them and making them feel defeated or wrong...NOT going to help.

I'm not so sensitive to it and know overall your heart is most likely in the right place, I'm just saying - for most, you're not helping the owner or the pet.



To everyone else - thank you so much for the support and the information, albeit earnest and scary! I have been searching for an emergency Avet in my area with no luck, it's pretty rural. The vet I use is the one I intern with (I'm a pre-vet student, but I am studying large animals and believe you me they are nothing like birds...)
In the mean time she has been separated from Wesley. She is eating, but not as much as the other two. She does move around the cage, get up on the perches to get to food, and she is pooping which is normal at this point. I spent an hour with her in a warm bathroom, then sitting in warm water with lubricant on her vent, and finally she did lay in the water. Doesn't mean it's over, but we are sure trying. We are mixing the egg protein mix, calcium, and ground pellets for her to eat and will see if she takes it first thing in the morning.

I do know seeds are not junk and a an important part of a small parrots diet. I feed a mixture of pellets, nuts, seeds, fruits, veggies, and also add in nutri-verries as treats every day. What I meant to imply is that if "all" she eats is sunflower seeds then - it's junk, it's incomplete. While they provide protein, selenium and vitamin E as well as fat they are not in themselves a complete diet.

She has the box back with 3 fake eggs. I will decide what to do with the live ones after I take care of Buttercup. I can take them into my vets office and the whole crew will care for them with me, if I decide to raise them. But yes, I understand their may be malformations and am not sure yet if it is worth the risk. I am not "too eager" to have chicks or anything like that, just hate to waste a life if I can help it.

Will update later...Thanks again for the info and support!
 

suncoast

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With all due respect to you, you have posted in the 911 EMERGENCY thread about a bird with very alarming symptoms. Symptoms that would have me in the car and on the way to Miami in a heartbeat. How are we supposed to know you have vet training? Why even post if you know what's wrong and are comfortable with your decisions? When I post it is not "screaming", what I'm attempting to impress upon the poster is that their bird is in big trouble and it's time to get them to a professional at once. I can't say how gut wrenching it is to come back on later in the day and find their beloved fid has passed. And it's happened several times.

I hope your little girl is fine, and I will keep her in my prayers.

Ginger
 
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April

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Wishing miss Buttercup the best.
 

Bokkapooh

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If she needed any assistance with this egg (an hour in the bathroom with you trying to get her to pass the egg) the next egg will kill her. She still needs to be seen by an avian vet right away. She cannot wait. A bird who is acting clumsy (swaying back and forth) and falling from perches is a major sign that she needed to get in and see an avian vet that very day, if your vet cannot be gotten ahold of, she needs to be seen by an an Evet (emergency vet). And I wanted to throw in that a bird with a gimped toe would not be causing the fallings or swayings on the bottom of the cage.

Avian and emergencies vets are not too hard to find if you live in the US. If you can give us the state you live in, we'll help locate one for you who can help your bird immediately. Your bird needs real help, not a trainees help. jmho.

Vet training or not, You did post in an 911 section and you were asking for help. If your going to ask for help, be prepared to receive it.
 
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evsrin

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And I wasn't screaming either, but the truth is that you should focus on her and not the eggs. I personally don't agree with keeping the eggs at this point and it sounds like you are too eager when you keep talking about keeping them. :confused: All you have to do is toss them and that's one weight that will be lifted from your shoulders and then you can focus on the real issues which is that your pair is not in acceptable breeding condition and the scariest part, that your hen is in need of immediate medical attention.

Good job for getting the fakes and letting her have them, but it still sounds like she needs to see a vet asap.

Good luck, please let everyone know how she's doing.
 

*K*J*B*

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At the risk of getting some MAJOR back lash I would like to comment on the persons who find it necessary to scream "you're risking her life" and "get her to the vet" - it would be better for the people who come on here scared and worried if you just kept your thoughts to yourself. Having worked in vet offices, rescues, and humane societies for years I see the kind of fear those types of reactions instill. Yes, it's important to get the point across and encourage people who are ill equipped to deal with an emergency to seek medical help, in this case, a vet. But screaming at them and making them feel defeated or wrong...NOT going to help.
I could not agree more...

I'm glad to hear she laid the egg. I hope she is done and starts to get stronger from this point. Good luck! :hug8:
 

quakingcanopy

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Welp, you're both right. I did post here looking for help. And I got it. Yes we are seeing a vet and if I thought I could handle it on my own I wouldn't have asked for help. But sometimes an abrasive approach only scares people and makes them defensive. Most people are going to do what they are going to do - if they don't have the $ or feel the necessity to see a vet chances are they won't no matter how many times you tell them - further still, if they aren't going to see a vet and you scare them off after asking for help they may give up all together where if you offer some guidance you might be able to help the pet. Just my experience with people. And yes, if someone can't afford or just isn't willing to seek a vet then they shouldn't have animals because animals get sick and get hurt. I took the birds because I knew I could afford to take care of them if...well...THIS happened! :)

Quick note - the swaying and falling started just a few hours before I posted this thread and I had been speaking with me vet before then, so I think overall my reaction time is okay in this case.

I am posting from the office one of the other vets came in to help me. He is a nice guy but is mostly a reptile and ferret vet. He has her in a small cage with a heating blanket under her. She is stressed, but I think it's more of all the handling plus being here and away from Wesley since it's too soon for her to have another full egg in the way. We are waiting to see if she will eat before giving hormones to stop further production but we have given calcium. 2 hours and if she doesn't eat, tube time. Will post updates if anyone wants to follow...Thanks again!
 

quakingcanopy

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Erin - at this point the eggs are sitting in a plastic box and need no attention. Sure, I can toss them, but it's just as easy as leaving them where they are for right now. I can worry about tossing them, or not, when I get home.
 

suncoast

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How is saying your bird is having a emergency, get help NOW, don't wait abrasive?

Ginger
 
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Bokkapooh

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Welp, you're both right. I did post here looking for help. And I got it. Yes we are seeing a vet and if I thought I could handle it on my own I wouldn't have asked for help. But sometimes an abrasive approach only scares people and makes them defensive. Most people are going to do what they are going to do - if they don't have the $ or feel the necessity to see a vet chances are they won't no matter how many times you tell them - further still, if they aren't going to see a vet and you scare them off after asking for help they may give up all together where if you offer some guidance you might be able to help the pet. Just my experience with people. And yes, if someone can't afford or just isn't willing to seek a vet then they shouldn't have animals because animals get sick and get hurt. I took the birds because I knew I could afford to take care of them if...well...THIS happened! :)
We cant help if someone feels they have been scared off because majority members say "take her to the vet". Up above You'll read under the 911 section this

"Initial treatment given to your injured/sick bird until a qualified avian veterinarian is available. THIS IS NOT MEANT TO REPLACE VET CARE."
We as members here on avian avenue, can only offer suggestions to keep her comfortable until she is able to see a vet. Keep her warm, keep her separated from her mate, etc etc etc. But we cannot really offer anything more. And when we see someone's post telling us how their birds illness or medical concern is progressing you'll bet your sweet marbles that the majority people who post will be "taker her to the vet" and "get well wishes".

I agree, in most situations to scream at someone who is already in shock stress, etc, is not the way to go. But no one is screaming at you, we're only reading/typing a posts and emphasizing what we say with captions and font size, etc.

I do hope your sunny does get well. Best wishes to her:hug8:
 

evsrin

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Erin - at this point the eggs are sitting in a plastic box and need no attention. Sure, I can toss them, but it's just as easy as leaving them where they are for right now. I can worry about tossing them, or not, when I get home.
I realize they don't need any attention at this very moment, but it just seems that you are trying to save them despite the fact that your pair did not have good care prior to you getting them. You do sound like you are well on your way to being ready for your first clutch, but is hatching eggs she laid in the midst of her health crisis really that important to you? I doubt that you would have given them the type of care they recieved prior, so therefore you wouldn't have been breeding them in that condition, so if you wouldn't have done it then, why is it okay to keep the eggs now? I just think it shows alot more positively on your efforts if you don't try to hatch those eggs. It's very likely there could be an issue and knowing that, it's not a chance I would take. I would want my pair to be in the best shape possible before raising a clutch for me. Especially when you will probably be selling those babies. How could you sell knowing they may not be very strong and healthy chicks? I really don't think that's your intent, so that is why I think what I do.

Please understand, I am not being rude... I'm just stating my feelings on this, you asked for opinions and you've gotten them. There are times on forums that people are intentionally rude and "abrasive" but I've ready this entire thread and I do not think anyone meant it in that way. Everyone is concerned for her safety, and lots of us have given you credit for things you've already done... if this is about learning then you also have to be receptive when asking for advice.

I truly wish you the best and hope to hear that she's doing better soon!:hug8:
 

pinkparrot

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I was kinda sad to wake up this morning and see the way this tread had turned.Why kill lives if we don't have to? We have no idea if the chicks are going to be healthy or not. They could be just fine. Its her choice on what she does with them and this topic was not titled "Should I keep the eggs'.
 

Anne & Gang

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dear, I wasnt yelling at you either....you posted in 911 I tried to help...we all did...I still say you should get her to a vet.and you say you are...we tried to help in the meantime..wishing you the very best....I read all the posts and no one yelled at you...we all tried to help..I just think you are stressed and worried about your birdie and rightfully so...calm down , take a deep breath and sending you big hugs :hug8:
 

gritsinct

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I was kinda sad to wake up this morning and see the way this tread had turned.Why kill lives if we don't have to? We have no idea if the chicks are going to be healthy or not. They could be just fine. Its her choice on what she does with them and this topic was not titled "Should I keep the eggs'.
I could ask the opposite - why bring a living thing into the world that has not been given the absolute best chance at having a good life? There is only a mass of cells in the egg at this point so there is no murder going on. (I'm sure there will be people who have different opinions on that - but that is my opinion and the opinion of my avian vet whom I spoke to recently about this very topic after my own egg laying situation.)

I love all animals and I will spend any amount of money to keep one from pain and suffering (even if it does not belong to me), but there are already too many unwanted/uncared for animals in this world and IMHO we should not be adding more 'just because'.

Sorry to continue to take this off topic, but I have a problem with the thought of birds (or any animal) possibly struggling with health problems their entire lives because the parents weren't healthy. Again, this is only my opinion and of course she should do whatever she decides is best for her situation. I am only responding to the 'why kill lives' mindset and I am not attacking your opinion at all! Just offering a differing one...
 

Sharpie

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I am very glad that she was able to pass another egg! That's wonderful news for her, and I'm even more thrilled that she has received calcium, is being kept warm and you guys are ready to tube feed her if need be. I hope she pulls through. It sounds like you're doing the best you can by her right now. I'm sorry this is happening so soon after you got her, and way to be a responsible person by taking care of her rather than just a) letting her be or b) returning her to the folks who had her before as 'defective.'

On the eggs, just my two cents, but I think everyone needs to stop and think. Yes, the eggs could have issues due to a poor start, but deliberately killing them (if they are viable) is a deeply personal issue for many, many people, tantamount to abortion for some. On the other side, keeping them around, knowing they're at risk for problems and contributing further to the severe bird overpopulation problem is seen as cruel by others. I don't think it is anyone's place to say that someone should or should not dispose of them give how emotional and tied to one's own personal beliefs something like this is.
 

quakingcanopy

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I really do want to thank everyone for their help and even their opinions. I don't think anyone has the right answer on how to approach a person who is scared and stressed or what do with eggs in this situation. But I appreciate the discussion and it gives me views to consider.

Buttercup is home, I am so relieved. She did start eating on her own. The stay in the humidified brooder at the office did her some good and she even took a bath. Because of her previous care - or lack there of - the vets and I agree that the biggest goal here is to keep her from trying to lay anymore. We took x-rays because since it took 4 days to get the second egg there is always the chance she had ovulated and was working on a third egg. No third egg, yet. But we want to keep her from laying again.

She has been given hormones, but that does not always work. So, I am limiting the light in the room to 6-8 hours a day. I put up dark curtains and also got a navy blue sheet that covers about 3/4 of her cage. The box is on her cage and is going to stay for at least a week or until I am sure she won't lay more. The eggs are in the box. She attacked the artificial ones so I am really glad I did not throw these out. While the survival of the eggs is not too important to me, it is important that she not try to lay another egg so she gets to keep these until again I am sure she won't lay more. Wesley is separated still, of course. He will remain so indefinitely.

To improve her condition her diet is changing a little, but thankfully she is cooperating. The vets gave me a high calorie/protein/fat pellet diet from Harrison's to help her gain weight and replenish what she is lacking. Since the pellets look like millet she took right too them and has already eaten about a tablespoon. I am still giving her sunflower seeds which she seems to only want if I am handing them to her one at a time. So, I get time to examine her up close and I know she is getting the extra fat. And lastly she gets her usual fruit and veggies which have o.1 ccs of a calcium syrup and 0.5 tsp of an egg protein mix on top - 3x a day.

...So, for those still following - do you have any more tips on what I can do to keep her from ovulating again? She won't accept the fake eggs so I can't try giving her a few in addition to her own too see if she will accept that number and stop. Anything else? Also, if you know sources of other artificial ones...I might try a different brand. Perhaps a different shade or size will make a difference...

Also, suggestions on helping her beef up a little are welcome, though at this point since she is so willing with the pellets and the supplements on her salad I think we are on the right track. Her weight is less then ideal, as is to be expected from her circumstance.
 

suncoast

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I am so glad she is doing better. May I ask what kind of fake eggs you got? Were they from the craft store or from this place?

Fake Bird Eggs, Plastic Bird Eggs, Stop Chronic Egg Laying, Bird Breeding Supplies, Plastic Dummy Eggs, Immitiation Eggs, Artificial Bird Eggs, Cockatiel, Conure, Parrot, Finch, Canary, Cockatoo, Budgie, Parakeet, Lovebird

I bought a dozen for my little Lovie hen and she accepts them. They are the right weight and heat up well.

I'm wondering if it would be alright to try giving her hand feeding formula to help her gain a little weight. It might help with the bonding process too.

Ginger
 

quakingcanopy

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I got mine from a local bird store a while back. I have had them on hand for maybe 3 years now? They are not solid like the ones on the link you gave me, so I might have to try those instead. Though, looking at the shipping, I won't have them until towards the end of the week(maybe Wed, sooner if I'm lucky but it's the weekend) and by then I am hoping I can start thinking about taking her nest away. I still want to order them for future use though either form there or somewhere similar.

The egg protein mix is really similar to hand feeding mix. It has what equates to ground pellets (corn, grains, seeds and nuts ground up), freeze dried eggs, crumbled shell, oyster shell (I would have to check the ingredients but I don't know if there is ground oyster shell in hand feeding mixes), and honey. But it might be an idea just the same!
 

ncGreyBirdLady

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I hope that I was not one of the people that made You feel Bad:hug8:We all tend to be a bit passionate about everyones Fids:)I'm SO Glad that She is doing better.Healing thoughts and Prayers for Buttercup and:hug8::hug8::hug8:For You! Keep Us posted!
 

gritsinct

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I'm very glad to hear that Buttercup is home and doing better!! :)
 
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