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I am nutz to consider getting a dog when I have an Eclectus?

Debbie

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I always had dogs first...birds were added after the dogs, so my birds were always used to the dogs from day 1. All my dogs have been trained well, but always supervised and when I leave the house the dogs are always put in their crates. If this bird has never been around dogs, I think I would see if you could get a friend to bring over a well trained dog to see how your bird reacts. I have never had any trouble teaching my dogs not to jump on the cages (and the Lab we had never even showed any interest in the birds, but of course not all Labs are like that). I know here in AZ we have a couple of Golden rescues and a lot of times they have older dogs available. Maybe even do a foster to adopt might be the way to go, and either go with a smaller breed foster, or older dog.
 

jfish930

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Thank you Debbie!

My bird guy will be available to talk to me today and I am waiting for my avian vet to email me back.
After sleeping on this, I am leaning towards not doing it.

Once or twice a month, Sophie flies down the hall after seeing a rabbit or deer in the yard. Sophies's wings haven't been trimmed in over a year because she is rather weighty (not fat but kind of dense) and flies at a steady downward angle for about 20 feet; enough to keep her from getting hurt.
I have this picture in my head of a well trained dog and Sophie eventually doing well together until she flies down the hall and the dog gets there before I can. This scares me.

Also, I found a very good obedience school where I go with the dog to classes. A few of the basic commands taught are stay, hold (meaning stay in place) and leave it (meaning either don't pick it up or drop it). Maybe that will help.

Many of you suggested an older dog, but I have some allergy issues (which is how I ended up with a bird in the first place) and I also don't want a dog with bad habits (no dog is perfect but i plan to work with the dog closely and daily).

The best suggestion yet is to have a friend come over with a well behaved smaller dog. My brother in law has a couple of Maltese's. They are high strung but well behaved. I think we will try that out with one of the dogs and see what happens.

Thanks for your advice!

Joel
 

jfish930

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Hello Everyone!

My Avian Vet responded to my email; I will be talking to my resident bird expert (Donn) later today to get his opinion. Here is the email I sent to the Vet yesterday (before I posted the question on this forum) and his answers are below in bold. I respect and like this Vet very much. Dr Mike was the Avian Vet able to help my Sophie when she had a chronic egg laying issue (I had posted questions on this forum during that time too). I had taken her previously to another Avian Vet who was no help at all. As a result, Sophie now has a 2nd cage and it is placed in her very own bedroom, covered by a black bird cage tarp. Every night without fail, between 8-830PM, Sophie lets us know that it's time to go Night-Night. She stays in there quietly and comfortably until about 8-830 AM and doesn't make a peep until I come in and uncover her cage to let her out for the day.

Anyway, here is my email to my Avian Vet and his responses:

Hello Dr. Mike,

I hope all is well and that you are having an enjoyable summer! This is not urgent, I value your opinion and would like to hear it:

For months now, I have been kicking around the idea of getting either a Mini-Goldendoodle or Mini-Labradoodle. I am allergic but grew up with a Wire Haired Fox Terrier and was fine with her. I am leaning towards a male Mini-Goldendoodle based on what I have read.
Labradors and Golden Retrievers do shed, so as long as you get the Poodle dominant skin trait you will get a dog that does not shed a lot. You will still be allergic to proteins in the saliva and some dander proteins on the skin, but with a healthy diet with Omega-3 Fatty Acids
from fish, you can keep the skin dander to a minimum.


My concern is with the parrot Sophie. If she sees a rabbit or deer in the yard outside (even when she is in the safety of her cage) she screams and either flies down the hall or hides under furniture. I then have to hold her and assure her that "it's ok". She has even learned to say "it's ok", although these sightings don't happen frequently. I have to take the bird's well-being into consideration ahead of the dog as the bird has been our first "resident".
Birds are so smart that I think with your planned tactic of always being there and slow introduction is fine.

I have done a lot of reading and at introduction time would keep the dog on a leash and the bird in the cage; I would allow the bird to see me interacting with the dog. I will never let the dog/bird in the same room unsupervised no matter how much time has passed.

My fear (perhaps unrealistic) is that we bring the dog in and the bird flies around inside her cage, banging herself in the cage and either injuring or killing herself. I guess I could hold the bird while Susan holds the dog during an introduction.

I may even ask the breeder if we can take the dog for an intro before we commit to a purchase, but I doubt they will allow that to happen.

What are your thoughts here? Of course you would be our dog's vet just like you are Sophie's and I would take the dog to you for shots, neutering etc.

I am also going to discuss with Don from Pretty Birds. If you and/or Don say its not a good idea, then I won't do it.
Great idea! Donn is a master with bird behavior.

Also, can you suggest any Mini-Goldendoodle breeders that are close by? I called and spoke with Beth from RG Doodles       412-965-2809 - Home and she advised that her dogs are raised with cats and don't even bother with them.
My daughter was searching for a similar breeder of Golden and Labradoodles and I do not have anyone that I can recommend unfortunately. Some people claim they are breeders because of an act of nature!
I also was considering training the dog somewhere where Susan and/or I would be involved in the training. I was looking at Home | campbowwow.com/pittsburgh-south but am also open to any suggestions you may have.

I sent my daughter and son-in-law here and they loved them! Their first dog is 2 years old and they are getting a second dog next week (decided on another Lab). (Like Father, like Daughter!) I like both of these places too.

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Thanks Dr Mike! Incidentally, Sophie hasn't laid eggs since the last shot!
Very good...I think we have the dose worked out now.

Sincerely,

Joel Fishbaine
 

learnincurve

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Once again, you cannot train hunter kill instinct out of a dog. If someone with 80 years experience of breeding and training herding dogs could not do it then a class which teaches basic obedience commands can't. you are planning on getting a dog bred to catch and retrieve birds. Everything in that letter screams "chase me". Birds are not that smart, they learn over time that X isn't scary because it hasn't killed me yet. Bird could go for years not freaking out about a dog then freak out about something else, dog's hunter instinct kicks and you end up with a tragic accident and a idiot owner going "but he never chased her before!!"
 

macawpower58

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Helen, Joel is not 'an idiot owner', but IMO a conscientious and responsible one.

He is asking advice, doing research, and weighing his options. What says 'idiot' in that to you?

Dogs and birds can be risky. Cats and birds can be risky. Rats/Ferrets and birds can be risky. Open doors and birds can be risky. Ceiling fans and birds can be risky. Falling asleep with your bird can be risky. Open toilets near your bird can be risky. Feeding a peanut can be risky.

Shall I go on?

Many, many, many of us have dogs/cats/rats/reptiles/etc...... and have not killed our birds yet.

And yes sometimes birds do die because of an owner's mistakes.

Not every dog is waiting to eat the bird. Yes, some dogs just might be.
Not every cat is waiting to eat the birds. Yes some cats just might be.

Any bird in the hands of an irresponsible owner can be said to be living a dangerous life.

Joel does not seem irresponsible to me. He seems to understand a dog's natural instincts, and seems to be aware of his bird's fears.

I think he can make an educated decision. I do not think he is an 'idiot owner'.
 

Mococo

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Just my $.02: I understand that the breed is important to you for allergy reasons, I'm also allergic to dog dander. Have you tried other breeds, for instance ones with very short coats? I ask because as a former dog trainer I think the individual dog's temperament can more important behaviorally than the breed. I had a boxer/bulldog who I barely reacted to, and he would've been perfect for my bird. He rarely barked, had no guard instinct, and only preyed on moths. He was very quiet and gentle. On the other hand, I had an Anatolian shepherd (flock guardian) who thought anything smaller than him was prey.

In general I would not plan on a dog that was bred to hunt birds, because breeding dies hard. Think of how nesty female Eckies can be. I had a German shepherd who would hunt people and tackle them. We never trained her to do that, but she did. Our beagle 'talked' non-stop every day.
 
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jfish930

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Thank you Mococo for your response and insight!

We went to the breeders home today where she had 4 dogs in her home : 2 (pregnant) mini goldendoodles f1b (which means 75% poodle and 25% golden), one male poodle (who wouldn't stop loving me the whole time we were there) and one f1 mini goldendoodle. I was very surprised at how many dogs were in the house because I only heard one brief quiet bark when we knocked on the door.
Anyway, I did have a minor sore throat for about 30 minutes after we left but it went away. I also had a sore throat when we got Sophie, our Eclectus. It lasted for 2 weeks and then I was fine. I think with one dog I would be fine.
I was so surprised how calm and quiet all the dogs were. The only sound made during our one hour visit was the one bark upon knocking. I have never seen such mellow, well-behaved dogs. Although the male poodle was constantly coming over to lick my hand and give me hugs, all the others were very calm.

I still haven't decided what to do. I am more worried about how the bird will react than how the dog would react. The dog will be a tiny pup when he would get to our home (about 8 weeks) and we would start professional training immediately. Both my avian vet and my local bird guy (who my avian vet knows and states he is a "master of bird behavior" ) say that if we integrate them slowly the bird will be fine.

I am still up in the air with the whole idea because we really love our Sophie and expect her to be around for many more years. I don't want to jeopardize that, so am still on the fence.

Thanks again!

JFish
 

melissasparrots

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I've introduced dogs and cats to plenty of birds. Usually the very first couple of days are fairly dramatic. I had a yorkie and then got my first cockatoo. The very first time the dog walked into her room, she fell off her perch and then did the crest up, scared cockatoo thing until he left. All interactions after that first one were with steadily decreasing drama. Within a few days we were good to go. Except my yorkie had very high prey drive so while the cockatoo was calm, I had to keep an eye on the dog.

My goffin's was not around dogs in her previous home and she has always been fine but watchful around my dogs. Until recently that is when she decided my springer's tail needed to be grabbed. Now she's not afraid of him at all and I kind of wish for the days that she had enough fear to have respect.

When I first brought my cat home, ALL of my amazons went into hawk head mode. They all had their hackles up for a few days. Then things calmed down and its all good now.

I think a golden doodle is a decent choice. I've heard of a golden that killed a macaw when they guy walked out of the house and didn't put his bird away. I've heard of poodles that grabbed little birds. But, generally I think with sporting dogs, if you set the ground rules right from the start that the puppy is at the bottom of the food chain and always will be, and you use common sense like keeping the bird caged when you leave the room, you will probably be fine. The puppy phase can be rough. Sometimes puppies aren't overly predatory, but they want to play like crazy, everything is a toy and they trample all over stuff randomly and assume anything in your hand must be lunged at and dragged around. That is when you tell them NO if they get to close to the bird, remind them to be careful if they walk too close to the cage. Birds like to grab tails as they go by. The pup will take a few weeks to figure out that birds really are not that great of a toy and you'll be able to let your guard down just a little bit. Personally, I really like fluffy herding dogs like shelties and border collies for bird owning homes. However, I'm making it work just fine with my springer and he's just as good if not better than my sheltie was. I may have lucked out with him though. I'd definitely stay away from the little vermin killer terriers and anything that was bred to kill stuff outright. I've heard of the most problems with the bully breeds, the small terrier and terrierlike breeds, dachshunds, and occasionally the guardian breeds like shepherds. Several members of those various groups have either a strong prey drive or aggressive behavior bred into them.
 
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melissasparrots

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you are planning on getting a dog bred to catch and retrieve birds.
I might point out that "bird" dogs are not generally bred to kill the thing they are retrieving. The hunter kills it, the dog goes to get it. Some flush things into the air so the hunter can kill it. The dog doesn't normally kill it though. In my experience, the greater problem is teaching a trainable dog proper expectations. I've found sporting dogs to be very trainable, terriers much less so. Once the puppy crazies are over, if a dog is trained that birds are an absolute NO all the time, most sporting dogs can live peacefully with birds. I have a hard time getting a picture of my birds without my springer in the background. Usually he's sleeping. Yesterday, my goffin's tried to bite his tail and then flew to the ground. I picked her up because birds aren't allowed on the ground in my house. The dog at no point made a move toward her. With sporting dogs, most just want to make their owner happy and if your expectation is that this the bird's house, the puppy is a guest here, then things will generally fall into place. In households where the attitude is that this is the dog's house and the bird is a guest, then problem's can happen. My house is the former, my parents house the latter. I have to watch out for my parrots when I take them with me to visit my parents. Their WPG likes to kill rabbits and would love a bird in his mouth. My springer won't even touch a baby bunny when given the opportunity. Literally he's had the chance and didn't take it.
 
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metalstitcher

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If she gets worried and worked up over something from outside I would not stress her out more by bringing in a dog.
 

jfish930

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Thank you for the great information Melissa! What you've said makes a lot of sense. I can say that once or twice in the nine years we've had Sophie, I came home and she was out of her cage. I think one time I forgot to put her in and the other time her food bowl door was popped open and she was sitting on top of the cage on on her playtop. ( I could tell by how proud of herself she was acting, that I must not have sealed the food bowl door and she figured out how to squeeze out. I would have to be more vigilant about putting her in every time I leave the room. Also, even though Sophie doesn't get her wings clipped, her cage door is open and she has free rein most of the time. She sometimes perches inside her open cage and often just hangs out on top (and she spends a lot of time on me too) but she almost never leaves her cage unless we pick her up. Even when I leave the room to take a shower, or do something for a half hour, she doesn't leave her cage. Even when I am in the nearby kitchen and she knows I am cooking and is calling out things like "love you" and "hey hey" to try to remind me she is willing to sample what's cooking, she doesn't leave her cage and come into the kitchen. She is extremely well behaved that way.

So, I have to be vigilant in making sure she is in her cage with the door shut every single time I leave the room. The good thing though is a dog won't find her wandering around the house and all her regular perching spots are out of the dogs reach.

I told my wife that IF we get a dog, we both will have to spend MORE time with the bird then normally (and we already do spend a lot of time with her) to help her adjust and to let her know she is numerous uno.

Metalstitcher: both my avian vet and my local bird expert say that Sophie is afraid of rabbits and deer in the yard because she doesn't know what they are and isn't sure if they can get in the house. They say she is smart enough to watch us interact with the dog and she will realize it's ok.

Lastly, this introduction would be done slowly and in phases. I figure my wife will have the dog in a leash and I will stand by the cafe is step one. Bird can watch wife interact with the dog while I "protect" the bird in her closed cage. If bird freaks out, wife and dog will leave the room and come back and we will repeat this as often as needed. Stage two I am thinking is to have the dog in his crate maybe about 10 feet or so from the cage and move it closer in small increments. I also was advised that the puppy will be tiny when we take him home (8-9 weeks) and won't be as threatening looking at that small of a size.
Lastly, my wife and I couldn't get over how mellow these breeders dogs were. As I said, there were 4 of them in the house and it seemed as if there was only one dog there rather than 4 (the one that kept licking and hugging me and trying to make direct eye contact :). I have never seen such mellow, quiet dogs.

Our house is a very peaceful quiet home and that will change for awhile, but my guess is when the puppy is a year old he will settle down a tad bit and our house will return almost back to normal.

Thanks for your input!

JFish
 
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KatherinesBirds

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I would introduce them little by little but by no means ever let them out together or anywhere that they would have contact. Keep the bird in the cage when the dog is there.
I have five birds. We acquired a Bouvier two years ago. They have a strong prey drive and love to chase little animals. My birds are all in one room together. The dog has been in the room but with all birds securely in their cages. I had a tall double door put in with the top of it at a height of 4 1/2 feet. This means that the dog won't jump over but the air circulation is still good for the birds. When I have a bird out, the door is LOCKED. No possibility of someone walking in and letting the dog in!!
My birds do freak out when they see the dog over the double doors. They act very cautious. For this reason I never let him in the room. He is a trained security dog. 92 pounds of fun!
Just be careful and all should be okay.
 

jfish930

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Hello macapower58,

I didn't see your last post until now as I am rereading every post as a review/refresher. Thank you for your kind words! I can understand the poster who seemed somewhat combative, as she seems passionate about parrots and that's as it should be. Yet at the same time, it did feel a bit personal. Maybe just her way of taking a hard stance to prove her point. Regardless, I like what you wrote and if I do this, I want to do it right.

Final decision is: Have my friend bring his small, old male dog over, keep him on a leash, have bird in cage and see how she reacts. My guess is the first time won't be good. I am going to have him come over several times (what a good friend!) and see if it improves so that Sophie can be on my shoulder while the (leashed) dog is in the same room. Based on Sophie's reactions, I will make my choice.

I also am confident that if I am vigilant in keeping watch of Sophie (she is so easy and never leaves her cage unless picked up (except for that once or twice a month when she flies down the hall after a rabbit sighting) she will be fine. My worst fear is what can happen on those rare occasions when she does fly down the hall.

I already have an obedience class picked out to begin at around the same time when/if I get the puppy. I will emphasize working on "stay, hold and leave it" for sure! Puppy would be about 8-9 weeks and ready to come home around end of Dec. beginning of Jan. so that give us plenty of time to practice!

thanks again!

Joel
 

macawpower58

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You'll decide your dog's 'trained' at about 5, maybe 10 years of age. ;) Training IMO is an ongoing thing, and you never get it as good as you envision.

Puppies are never trained. Puppies are bundles of disobedience, drama, havoc, and of course sweet smelling fun all rolled up into fuzzy fat bundles.

Then your 'teen' dog (1-3 years of age), drives you nuts with rebellion, selective hearing, and just plain all out crazy behavior!

Then those middle age years. The time we all wait for. Dogs that just know us, know what we want, and silently and swiftly make us whole and content.

Then the last years, we dread those. The perfect dog becomes worn, tired and often sick. We watch as one of our best friends fails.

All in all, I'd not miss a moment of it.

 

Percy&Ivan

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Well I don't know much about bird dog relationships. But I kinda disagree with everyone I would get an older dog like eight or 10ish then he would be more laid back. And totally not sure on this one but wouldn't a bigger dog be better? I'm asking this one not giving advice. If she's afraid of rabbits a rabbit sized dog wouldn't be very good would it?
 

macawpower58

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My biggest problem with birds and older dogs is they can be very set in their habits.
If you read the dog wrong, or haven't noticed certain behaviors or know what triggers the dog may have, you don't have the time to train as you would with a pup.
Older dogs, especially larger ones can also be very determined, and I mean physically, when they want something. They've often learned to be sneaky and evasive to get what they want. They know people.
Most pups are still emotionally soft enough for most people to stop a sudden behavior with just our voice. Most of the time. Even pups can be hard headed at times.

Large or small is IMO not really something that makes a difference for me. Drive, and biddibility is.
A biddable dog wants to please you. A lower drive dog doesn't hype up as quickly.

 

macawpower58

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Some of those folk were clueless!
 
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