Hazards of buying unweaned birds - Breeder's input appreciated.

[melissasparrots]

Things that stand out as going wrong:
1. I had one apparently very healthy quaker baby drop dead for no apparent reason while I was cleaning the brooder. Necropsy showed a heart defect. I've raised over a couple dozen babies from that pair, so I don't think its bad genetics. Just bad luck for that chick. If he'd been sold unweaned (he was on about 3 feedings) the owners would have had a fairly traumatic experience. Most of those sorts of things will have shown themselves by the time the baby is weaned. So by purchasing weaned, not only do most breeders have a much better health guarantee, but the bird has also been in the world long enough for at least most congenetal issues to become apparent.

2. Splay legs and learning how to make a hobble to fix it.

3. Toes not in the right position and learning how to fix that.

4. A brooder that stopped heating consistenly and caused slow crops on day ones.

5. Parent parrotlets that overstretched the babies crop and figuring out how to get enough food into the bird but not have it go rotten sitting in the bottom of a flacid crop.

6. Baby swallowed a pine shaving on the eve of a major holiday when our emergency vets don't see birds. Parrotlet chick weight 11 grams when he did it. It took me a couple days to get it manipulated just right to get it out of him. Trying to keep him hydrated and then catching him up from lost growth time was a challenge. He made it though.

7. Babies pulled out of the nest with bacterial infections. Which after antibiotics turns into a fungal infection. So far in 25 years of doing this small time I've never had a chick get an infection after being pulled from the nest and only a couple times before pulling from the nest. Got a crash course in why its best to just spring for the culture and sensitivity right from the start rather than just settling for a gram stain to diagnose. You can't wait to try on a few different antibiotics meanwhile a bird is going down hill. You need to get the right drug the first try. At the very least a little more up front expense will save you by preventing multiple trips back and forth the vet, several weeks of drugs when you could have gotten it done in 10 days, and babies feeling icky longer than needed. Sometimes my vet needs to be told what I want him to do because more often than not he's happy prescribing after just a gram stain and thinks he's doing me a favor and saving me money. Not.

8. First flight and all that goes with that. Usually its directly into a wall, sliding down like some cartoon character and hitting the floor with a thud. I've personally never had one get hurt, but I have heard cracked beaks, brain injury and death from that.

9. Learning how to deal with the first independence phase and training to be gentle. My amazons can sometimes go through one heck of a push for independence at around weaning. Don't touch me, leave me alone, your too boring and old to bother with anymore. Most inexperienced hand-feeders don't have the skills to deal with that. They seem to be under the impression that buying unweaned they will get to shape the babies behavior, form a wonderful parent child bond and everything will be great all day long after that. Not. Baby will still at some point try to experiment with some new and not so desireable behaviors. Better to get that out of the way at the breeders than risk a bunch of hurt feelings and being sold to someone else again anyway.

10. Almost forgot-babies that for no apparent reason don't want to eat or have a lousy feeding response. I've had a few amazon babies that I fed so well when tiny that they got to be super lazy feeders. A couple of the girls even decided that regurgitating just swallowed food for a second tasting was fun, very self rewarding and thus habit forming not to mention messy. I can see someone inexperienced aspirating a baby or subjecting it to all sorts of vet visits trying to figure out whats wrong with it when really nothing is wrong. Not to mention if they turned to the internet message boards for help they'd be referred to a vet and likely given all sorts of advice to deal with a medical issue the bird doesn't have. I did have to learn that sometimes with some species letting them go empty between meals so they get a little hungry is a good thing. Some other species need every calorie they can get in order to reach full size. Just because I hand-raised a bunch of 'tiels, parrotlets and quakers didn't make me ready for all the little quirks that amazons and other species have. They are all different and I learn something new usually through my own mistakes any time I take on a new species. I don't sell unweaned because I can't imagine how it could possibly be better for the baby to go from someone experienced and familiar to someone not experienced. People will absolutely come out of the woodwork trying to convince me how experienced they are with hand-feeding and how nothing ever went wrong before so they can buy a baby from me unweaned. I'm not so concerned that nothing ever went wrong. I want to know how your going to deal with it when something does go wrong and that only really comes from experience. In many cases its a judgment call to go to the vet or deal at home. Is this baby dropping weight like crazy because its sick or is it just getting ready for its first flight? Only previous experience with that particular species teaches those sorts of things.

I'll post more if I think of them later. Ooops just remembered #11-ruptured air sack leaking air bubbles into the skin around the crop forcing formula into one small area of the crop and not emptying out of that and turning hard. Vet couldn't figure out what was wrong because he wasn't experienced with avian pediatrics and his old eyes wouldn't let him see the nearly microscopic air bubbles under the skin around the crop. Grams stain showed no bacterieal issue but baby was prescribed baytril just in case and because vet had no clue otherwise. Unfortunately, birds on medicine often feel icky because of the meds and don't eat as well or vomit. With babies needing food to grow, unecessarily medicating a baby just in case isn't always the best way to go. I ended up treating that one myself by poking a sterilized needle under the skin and squeezing the air out. Had to do that twice, plus a few more days for all the little bubbles to disipate and the baby needed plenty of TLC after to get caught up and not end up stunted. Have no idea how he ruptured an aircell sitting in a kleenex lined bowl. Baby was about 7 days old when he did that. I have to wonder if I over filled his crop a little bit and stretched the surrounding tissues too much. I can't see how that would rupture and air sack, but ????? I'll probably never know. I never did end up using the baytril on him. By far the huge majority of babies I've had with problems have survived. Its very rare for me to loose a chick.
Melissa

 

[featherbabies]

One thing I do is to make sure that every baby that has weaned, still stays for a week or two, just to decrease the chances that the baby will regress. Luckily it has never happened, but I do have a plan in place. I would recomend that they offer warm mushy foods from a little spoon, like oastmeal, or cream of wheat. The baby could get the comfort while decreasing the chance of the new owner aspirating the baby. Just let the little one have a few nibbles from the spoon rather than putting it in the mouth.
As breeders, we never stop learning. A fun aspect is that different species behave differently as babies. My tiels would always begin refusing formula when they were getting ready to fledge, which I expected. But my gcc babies would refuse a lot earlier in the process. I panicked until I realized it was a pattern. As soon as the babies "felt" they dropped enough, they began eating better again.

 

[palmtoolady]

I've been a breeder/handfeeder since the late 90's and have done thousand's of hand feedings. I shudder every time I see that someone is going to buy an unweaned baby especially when they have no experience. While you don't have to be a rocket scientist and good old common sense goes a long way there is a lot more to it than mixing some formula and feeding a baby. One of the most important things I have learned from feeding so many babies over the years is that the more experience you have the more it helps. An experienced hand feeder can usually quickly recognize that there is a problem and know what to do about the problem whereas someone with little to no experience might be wondering if there is even a problem or trying this or that until it is too late. I have a personal policy of when there is a problem to consult my avian vet first rather than fool around and be on the internet asking for home remedies or advice. I'm a firm believer in going to the vet first and then write about it on the internet in order to share the experience with others. I am very proud to say that with the hundreds of babies I have had, greys, eclectus, caiques and rosies mainly that I've ever only lost one baby. I found a rosebreasted cockatoo baby dead in the brooder one morning when it was 3 weeks old. Of course it had a necropsy and was sent for histo which came back that it had a hematoma on its liver that it was most likely born with and it ruptured and the baby bled out. There was nothing anyone could have done to save that one. I have also never aspirated a baby or burned one's crop. Even though I've had a lot of feeding experience I'm always careful. I have another personal policy that no matter how much of a hurry I'm in or how stressed I am that if I am feeding a baby all that is put aside and I make sure to slow down and pay attention. That's not to say I've never had problems with babies because I have and the more babies the more problems, law of averages. LOL I've had everything from a runny nose and slight bacterial infection, to a ruptured air sac, broken legs, yolk sack peritonitis, aspiration pneumonia (I didn't aspirate the baby, he was having foot problems and my vet had him in a hobble which upset him so much that at some point he managed to aspirate a bit of formula) and I'm sure a few others. Luckily with the help of my vet we got all the babies through these problems. Unweaned babies are more supseptible to problems than weaned babies. I don't think the average person is capable of handling these types of problems nor should they have to. I'm a big believer in proper equipment for raising babies. The younger the baby the most critical the temperature and humidity. 2 degrees can mean life or death to a new hatchling. A professional breeder usually has state of the art brooders to keep their chicks in rather that the person who is going to buy an unweaned baby and try keeping it in an aquarium with a heating pad. They simply don't want to make the investment in equipment they are only going to use for a short time and I don't blame them.

Earlier in this post I mentioned that common sense went a long way. A few years ago I joined a hand feeding list thinking that I could offer some good advice when asked. After a few months I found that it was causing me too much heart ache listening to the problems people were having because they bought an unweaned baby. I would try to explain to them the importance of a good thermometer and carefully checking the temperature of the formula. They would tell me how they didn't need one they could test a bit with their lips and know if the temperature was right or not. I'd try to explain the importance of daily weighing their babies and funny but some people would tell me how they could just look at them and tell. My final straw when I couldn't take any more was when a girl told me her baby had formula running out of its check and when I told her she had a crop burn and needed to get to an avian vet ASAP she insisted she could not have possibly burned the crop and was going to put skin glue over the hole. I know most people would have far more sense and listen and really try to do a good job but I think its much better to buy a weaned baby. Just one final thing I'll add here is that yes, a baby will bond to its hand feeder but they will just as easily bond to the next person that takes care of them. You definately do not have to hand feed to bond.

Pat

 

[Greycloud]

Excellent info Pat! I wish people would just realize it is not a game. Little lives are at risk.

 

[Ziggymon]

Very informative thread, even to someone like me who has no intention of ever getting a baby bird. Thank you.

 

[Kathie]

Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.

 

[avianantics]

I no longer breed or raise babies, but I did for nearly 30 years and will be happy to share my experiences. But, it's late and there's no room on the soapbox, 'cause Kathie won't move over. So.... I will delay my input until tomorrow. Goodnight all.

 

[Leza]

Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.

I personally wouldn't consider this an opinion or an emotion, but the cold hard TRUTH!!

 

[Merlie]

I no longer breed or raise babies, but I did for nearly 30 years and will be happy to share my experiences. But, it's late and there's no room on the soapbox, 'cause Kathie won't move over. So.... I will delay my input until tomorrow. Goodnight all.

Shelly ..

Would still love your input on the subject. I know you'll have great info.

Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.

Oops. Sorry. I didn't read through the entire thread before I responded.

No worries Kathie ... I feel the same way you do on all counts.

 

[Blu]

Non breeder here though I do have 5 years of breeding malard ducks, the one B&G we got back in April died from PDD, now new owners of another 14 week old B&G and a 11 week old blue throat.Bought when they where 7 and 10 weeks.I want everyone to know rather this is accepted or not by the veterans in breeding but the vas amount of reading out there I would never trade the experience with our macaws that are not weaned before we bought for the world.I do know it's not for every future owner, to each his own and laws are going in the direction to not sell unweaned birds.When we lost blu to PDD I will be the first to admit it hurt us more to see the bird suffer and wished I had known so I could of just put him down to stop his suffering.But his death has given us a very good look into the world of breeders and how many do the wrong thing as much as many see selling unweaned birds as bad.Now that we have two new babies in the house I've now realised how much so many over react to the smallest things, once we broke out of the shell of fear our eyes opened up and saw things more closer to the way the birds see it.I guess what I'm mostly saying is we have learned to listen and watch the bird helping by allowing it to show us what they need, we put everything in front of the macaws and allow them to tell us what they want when they take what they want.When we see things that remind us of blu situation or if something they start to do that makes no sense the internet feeds us information but so far we just keep coming to a conclustion that it's not as bad as we make it.We have learned the most important aspect of weaning a bird or being a macaw owner's is we are the link for the birds to a life that mimics the closest thing to there natural habitat and we think in ways that are way different than other family pets people own that birds require us to think outside of the box.Buying a bird unweaned or weaned the problems I've read hear can happen on both sides and the breeder is responsible to verify they are selling to someone with understanding the responsibility to take on these kind of pets.To each his own on this IMO, but I love my two babies and I never stop reading on ways to give them the closest thing to a normal life as we all can accept this or not but these birds where never meant to be in captivity in the first place due to the fact we have not been able to duplicate food or items they get in the wild, again this is another debate.I see these birds no different than a bird of prey, or any other exotic.I feel the bigger problem for these bird is people who buy and then sell, trade,give away after once they tire of them.I for one would support a ban on selling birds before weaning and feel it will be that way in the near future.

 

[KatherinesBirds]

I did a lot of hand feeding years back and really did not like selling birds that were not weaned. I rarely did sell unweaned birds. A lot of the time the young birds reverted and needed to be hand fed for a little longer resulting in a bird becoming weak and sick trying to eat pellets or seed like and adult.

 

[waterfaller1]

A great thread! Thanks for starting it Teresa. I am not a breeder, but do have some experience handfeeding. I have come to change my thoughts on handfeeding, and the sale of unweaned birds. I personally almost lost Holly, had it not been that I do have a keen sense of things. I also had the help of many good people here on AA, a close friend, and a great vet. She was also hacked, and not allowed to fledge. I would not do it again, ever.
I tried to write a letter to the governor of FL to change the laws like they did in CA at least, so no unweaned birds ever leave FL in crates on planes the way they do. So many heart wrenching stories here on AA about babies that were promised to be a certain age, but are clearly much younger when they arrive. Their crops have been pumped up and stretched to see them through the flight. Buyers in other states think they are getting a deal by saving money, but clearly the risks of not only having a sick baby, but one that does not make it at all are huge. I got a pat reply. There are forces behind keeping things as they are that are clearly much bigger than a written plea for concern on this subject. But I tried.

 

[ArtBird]

Short and sweet.
I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.
Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.
To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.
Steps off soap box.

I am mortified at the fact that this happened to me, and I could have lost the most precious thing that ever happened to me. My sis encouraged me to go buy a cockatiel, because I had always loved birds, and had a 'keet that I loved when I was younger. So, I went to Bird Hut, in Portland, OR, where I looked at tiels, and they were very cute....but... The owner/worker had a couple of baby Senegals out, and one hopped on my shoulder, and made little lovey sounds at me. I had never seen one before, (such a newbie)...but the people there basically talked me into getting the Senegal baby, told me how he needed to eat, and sent me home with formula, a thermometer, and instructions on how to feed him with a syringe. They told me he was " pretty much weaned ", that he was ready to start eating real food in a couple of days, so the syringe formula was "just in case".

Well.....4 weeks later....he is still gobbling formula, and acting like he was reeeetarded about how to eat seeds etc.
I actually called back to Bird Hut to ask if he was reetarded, (I'm sorry- I was the supereetarded one...lol) because he was falling over/ couldn't crack a seed , when he tried to climb his cage, he would fall down or just be so clumsy! They laughed at me, and told me he should have been weaned by now but to just keep giving him formula when he wanted it. I didn't even know that he had to learn how to eat new food! *cringe*

I'm heartbroken at the idea that I could have hurt him for lack of proper and honest information. I love him so much. I took great care to follow instructions exactly, down to the exact temp...and I started researching about it and was appalled to find out he should never have been allowed to leave so young, and was not weaned at all or even close. I WAS LUCKY!!!! and I know that. After reading so much more here in this thread- I'm also sad that I caved to the pressure to buy him and take him home, right then...instead, I should have gone home and researched the breed, etc. I was well prepared for a 'tiel, ...and had been planning it, but never expected to meet a Sennie and fall in love, and out of that, end up possibly being careless...it could have cost him his life. I wish they had told me to come back when he was ready.

Truly, thank goodness for caring people like you, who gather in these forums and share knowledge that is so much needed....because it helps them (our companion parrots) be safer around seeds-for-brains humans.
Ki is now 8, healthy and happy, and STILL I am learning things I did not know about him.. & his genus.

 

[Greycloud]

ArtBird, thank you for sharing your experience. So many people start out just like you. Not knowing any better. Not knowing the importance and seriousness of properly raising and Hand feeding a baby. Many are at fault for leading people on. We hope that when others may Google about Hand feeding babies they will be directed to this thread, and learn!
I am so glad that Ki is a happy, healthy bird now and you both enjoy each other!

 

[ArtBird]

ArtBird, thank you for sharing your experience. So many people start out just like you. Not knowing any better. Not knowing the importance and seriousness of properly raising and Hand feeding a baby. Many are at fault for leading people on. We hope that when others may Google about Hand feeding babies they will be directed to this thread, and learn!
I am so glad that Ki is a happy, healthy bird now and you both enjoy each other!

Yes! Thank you....I still feel guilty because I could have hurt him by being so ignorant. I wish I had read this thread before going to that store!
Thank you so much...yeah, he is pretty amazing. and funny. and sweet....lol...and....

There are tons of pics of him on my first Welcome post.

 

[Yoshi]

There are a few ads that are popping up that I wish I could post this thread as a response to them. This "breeder" is posting several different species that she has eggs in the nest for and wants to sell the babies out of the nest. Quite a bit extra $$ if they don't sell until after they are weaned.

 

[yvette]

Its interesting to me that when a person buys a puppy....they dont think to bring a 3 week old pup home. They wait until the pup is eating on there own and not feeding from the mother anymore.

 

[ArtBird]

There are a few ads that are popping up that I wish I could post this thread as a response to them. This "breeder" is posting several different species that she has eggs in the nest for and wants to sell the babies out of the nest. Quite a bit extra $$ if they don't sell until after they are weaned.

Please, DO put on your Warrior-Princess panties, and go after her! I just emailed an eBay store seller who was advertising cages w 1" bar space for Senegals, and she changed her ad and apologized. small step, I know....lol but go for it!

 

[rocky'smom]

I have handfed budgies and would like to add a few comments to this thread.
first off: if you have never handfed a bird in your life STOP! you don't know what you are doing and could kill the baby either from crop burns or under or over feeding.
i had to handfeed the 2nd clutch of budgie babies because their parents were exhausted and the mother died from being egg bound. the father just could not keep up with 5 screaming fidlets.
i had to learn very quickly what to do because those 5 were starving to death. i called a good friend who was breeder for help. she was kind enough to come over and show me what i needed to do. she supplied me with syringes, feed formula and basic starting tools. i had some tough lessons too. crop gas in the babies that was caused by me feeding too fast. that was trip to the vet. keeping the formula warm enough to feed 5 screaming fidlets. thank god for egg poachers it worked well enough and kept the formula the proper temps. keep all the utensils clean & sterile. a place to keep those 5 warm and safe while they were not being fed. at first it was the nestbox inside of glass aquarium with heating pad on low. when they out grew that set up, it the aquarium with blanket of the top & heating pad under it.
it was tough serveral of weeks and we survived it. but i would never do it again. all the babies survived. and i count myself lucky that they did cuz i made alot stupid mistakes.
i wrote a article for Bird Talk and if you can find old editions of Bird talk it was Feb 1989 page 10. yes, it was a 'tongue in cheek' article but it was the truth. it's alot of work.
i would never buy a unweaned baby from anyone (breeder) there are too many risks.
rocky'smom

 

[95talongirl]

I also do not agree with the sale of un-weaned birds. As exciting as it is to bring a new baby home, it is not worth the risk! Just wait a few more weeks.

A long time ago, I had three cockatiels that lived in my bedroom. Sunny, who I got when I was 9, then Dusty and Speckles, who I got a few years later. So I was 12 or 13 when this all happened. Dusty and Speckles formed a bond and had babies. They rejected the babies, so I took over the parenting. Mind you, this was mid-90's, I was just starting middle school, and my parents really could care less about the animals. So I went down to the library (no internet!) and picked up a book on handfeeding. I made a "brooder" from an aquarium, and used my finger to determine the temperature of the formula. (Once again, no help from parents, as they thought I was nuts in the first place for trying to help them. So I barely had enough money for the formula, let alone thermometers, brooders, and such.) The first few weeks were HARD. Every 4 or so hours, I had to feed them. Thank god this was over summer break form school! But as you could expect, I did loose a few to probably burnt crops, or sour crops... or who knows what else because I had no real tools. The few that did survive were amazing little guys. I will always remember Falco (the one I kept) following me around. I would be downstairs, and a few minutes later... here he comes.

But long story short, I would NEVER even want to hand feed again, unless absolutely necessary. It is an art, and something not to be taken lightly. I was heartbroken over the loss of a few chicks, knowing that it was probably my fault. After that little stint into bird parenthood, I made sure to try everything to discourage the two 'tiels from breeding.