Green cheek hybrid?

[Bokkapooh]

Might be time to find a new vet. Birds might gain some muscle with age but they are essentially full grown by the time they wean.

I think in length/size they're about full size when they wean.

But I'll use Mera as an example. She weaned by herself with me at 5.5 months old. She was only 800-850grams at weaning. By a year old she was 1000grams and by 1.5years old she was 1150grams.

So they do keep gaining weight after they wean. Most babys at weaning age weigh less than an adult would.

 

[Bokkapooh]

The "sun cheeks" are the result of breeding a new mutation in with others that were already established. As I understand it, the breeder who created the sun cheeks bought the new mutation (that he introduced into his flock) from another breeder.


I would be surprised if there are any pure green cheek conures left in the USA. There are different subspecies of green cheek conures, which means their colors vary! Some green cheeks have a completely crimson red tail, some green cheeks have green at the base of the tail. Those that have green at the base of the tail may or may not be visible when the bird is relaxed. Some green cheeks have white-grey ears while others have yellow-grey ears. Some green cheeks have a white-ish-grey chest where-as others have a yellow-ish chest. The amount of red on the stomach can also vary depending on the subspecies. Some green cheek conures have blue at the nape of the neck while others don't. Some green cheek conures have blue or blue tinted vent/butt feathers and others have green vent feathers. Not only that, but size/weight also varies between the subspecies.

Here in America (and I'm sure probably other places as well), we put two similar looking species together and bred them! Same goes for subspecies! The following website shows a bit of a pictorial of the various subspecies (well, some of them).
green cheeked


Since Opaline (Yellowside) and Cinnamon are both Sex-Linked mutations, it would be extremely easy to get Hybrid Mutations... you simply pair an Opaline and/or Cinnamon Male Green Cheek Conure with any other species of Pyrrhura!


If these links work.... here's some hybrid mutations....

Opaline GCC x MBC hybrid with 3 GCC's
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/229220_10151151051746590_391840702_n.jpg

Cinnamon GCC x MBC Hybrid
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/400796_284970001613502_1548864603_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/376541_284970344946801_163197704_n.jpg

Opaline GCC x Pearly hybrid
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408663_247102382079400_2119280606_n.jpg

Fallow MBC x Cinnamon GCC (2nd generation?)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/299475_247103035412668_83052754_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550766_247103622079276_1876118621_n.jpg



So.... as you can see (hopefully!), it is very easy to create hybrid mutations!




Now, as far as the green cheek conure with the red shoulders? I would be surprised if he's not a hybrid! I don't necessarily think he's a hybrid with another Pyrrhura species, just a hybrid within the Green Cheek Conure subspecies. Red on the shoulders isn't necessarily an indication of hybrid, either. It's a trait that some green cheeks are getting, although the color isn't necessarily always red... it could be yellow or even orange.


Here are some other birds for comparison (could also be hybrids with other species, or just a trait)
http://i.imgur.com/g1OYZoy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WINO2o0.jpg


www.parrotscene.co.uk

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/537505_133816816774787_1059438112_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/255044_309601809150321_54199878_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/255006_309601639150338_130746630_n.jpg

Maroon bellied with same trait
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/537970_410599582292031_976910106_n.jpg



(sorry if all the links don't come through correctly!)




Hope it helps, but I'm afraid I may have made things more confusing!!!

GREAT POST MONICA!

I think many species are hybrid with different subspecies of the same species. Like the scarlscarlet macaw for instance. There are three known subspecies. But most are hybrid together in captivity.

 

[Monica]

PS, here's the story, as I know it, about the dilutes (not same mutation as cinnamon)

Larry Lopez He may have bred GC's for 26 years, but he wasn't the one who had the First dilute GreenCheek! The story goes that he bought some from someone who had this mutation spontaneously occur in her aviary, the person's name I do not know, it is true though that once he acquired the first Dilutes, he bred them into his YS, Cinn. & Pineapples to produce YS Dilutes, Cinn. Dilutes, Suncheeks, Mints etc!

Richard Cusick Larry is correct Dean. Dilutes have only been bred, in any numbers, in the last 6 years or so.......and Steve G. bought his first Dilutes from a woman, named Janet, at the Pomona Bird mart in California.

 

[Bokkapooh]

What's a suncheek? Sunconure x GCC hybrid?

 

[wonderb]

Most people don't distinguish between subspecies, so hybrids among subspecies are a given IMO. In terms of the other mutation hybrids, that's why I asked if she was indeed a female. For a hybrid mutation to occur, the visual babies would have to be female and the father would have to be the GCC. It's just not very likely, particularly because this bird has no real indications for being a hybrid.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I wish people would consider what they're doing when putting two different subspecies together. Sometimes they come from drastically different areas and its horrible to hybrid different subspecies of the same species.

Which could also be why we see in some species smaller egg counts and sizes and smaller birds being produced.

 

[briabelletee]

Oh my goodness lots of amazing information here! Thank u so much mercedez for all those details. It is soo helpful and really explains Alot of my questions. Thanks for educating me, i continue to learn so much from the AA!!!

 

[Monica]

Actually, hybrids between subspecies would result in healthier birds, not the other way around. Hybrids would have more genetic diversity than both parents, so they should, in theory, be healthier. It's only an issue when you hybridize species that are not closely related that you run into health problems... or even the mutligeneration (or mutlispecies?) hybrid macaws. I don't know at what point we start seeing health problems in the hybrid macaws.

A "suncheek" is an American Dilute-Cinnamon-Opaline GCC.
"Suncheek" mutation color of Green-Cheeked Conure of The Feather Tree

Not to be confused with the Sun x GCC hybrid (I hate the "suncheek" nickname for that very reason!)




Ellen, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that the GCC in this thread is a hybrid with another species of Pyrrhura. Although yes, it's possible, at most I don't really expect the bird to be anything beyond a GCC Subspecies hybrid, unless the bird has a hybrid parent somewhere back in her history that's not showing now?

 

[briabelletee]

No, its similar to the american dilute and the pineapple. Their feet are dark their beek is light and their primary flight feathers are white I believe, I could be wrong though. I dont want to link to their website because i don't want to offend anyone but the website is feathert dot com.

I also wanted to add that your link addressed my concern about the red on the wings, very informative. Thank you again!!!

 

[Bokkapooh]

I won't argue much Monica, I just want my point heard. I don't agree with hybriding even same species different subspecies.

The mexican scarlet is a tiny scarlet macaw compared to the central and brazilian. And the central, brazilian and mexican scarlet macaw all look very different. The mexican scarlet is almost extinct.

Sorry for going off topic, I think its important to recognize subspecies and breed pure.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Wow, that suncheek mutation is absolutely gorgeois! Anyone seen any in the pet trade?

 

[wonderb]

I think in length/size they're about full size when they wean.

But I'll use Mera as an example. She weaned by herself with me at 5.5 months old. She was only 800-850grams at weaning. By a year old she was 1000grams and by 1.5years old she was 1150grams.

So they do keep gaining weight after they wean. Most babys at weaning age weigh less than an adult would.

To be fair, the larger the bird, the longer they take to get to their full size. Mera weighs 16x what a GCC does. Birds can also sometimes lose "baby fat" after weaning. It can go either way, but smaller birds don't usually grow a significant amount after weaning-- particularly in a way that makes them appear larger or smaller.

 

[Monica]

No, its similar to the american dilute and the pineapple. Their feet are dark their beek is light and their primary flight feathers are white I believe, I could be wrong though. I dont want to link to their website because i don't want to offend anyone but the website is feathert dot com.

I also wanted to add that your link addressed my concern about the red on the wings, very informative. Thank you again!!!

Sounds like the "suncheek", except the feet are pink. The regular dilutes have dark feet but they are light colored birds with light blue flights and a beak that is neither light nor dark, but inbetween. The "suncheek" has 'white' flights, pink feet, light beak.

Most people love these mutations. I mentioned the "story" of how Steve Garvin acquired the dilutes previously. Post #23.

I won't argue much Monica, I just want my point heard. I don't agree with hybriding even same species different subspecies.

The mexican scarlet is a tiny scarlet macaw compared to the central and brazilian. And the central, brazilian and mexican scarlet macaw all look very different. The mexican scarlet is almost extinct.

Sorry for going off topic, I think its important to recognize subspecies and breed pure.

I honestly don't disagree! I only mentioned about hybrids potentially being healthier because you mentioned smaller clutches and smaller birds. Some people will actually say that hybrids are larger than both parents, where-as some hybrids end up being right in the middle of both parents, and some might be smaller. I really don't think there is any way to determine for sure what sizes the chicks will be, only guesstimate them to be somewhere between both parents.

Amy S. I know of the breeder you are talking about, he has sun cheeks, and american dilutes, etc. I had simliar feelings as you on that. Although he claims it is a natural occuring mutation, but he had to breed to get them that diluted? Too confusing?

BTW, if it was not for selective breeding, you would not have such "high red" yellowside and pineapple conures that you do! Both have more red than the typical mutations usually have, especially your yellowsided conure. Your pineapple doesn't have much more red than usual, but still more than the average pineapple mutation that you see.

Red African Greys were bred in a similar way as the "Red" green cheeks. Birds with more red than others were paired up with others like them to produce even redder birds. The birds do not have to be related in order to get redder birds, merely having two birds that both have the traits you desire in offspring. Same also goes for the Red Factor Sun Conures...

It's not necessarily a bad thing, if done right, and can result in a variety of gorgeous colors! Personally, I'd love to see some very yellow yellowsides myself! And I think there are breeders who are trying to breed "high red" turquoise green cheek conures - which in the turquoise mutation, the red comes out as pink...

 

[briabelletee]

I didn't purchase either of my babies because of their color or the fact that they are "high red". I rescued Olive from a bad situation pet store and i got hazel from a wonderful breeder who was convinced she was a perfect fit because of her disposition, not her color. Im not a part of the debate, nor did i disagree with anything said. I was simply curious about why Olive is so different from Hazel.

As far as feather tree, i was merely stating that i didn't understand how sun cheek, American dilute, etc. Can be called a natural occurring mutation when to my knowledge it has yet to occur in the wild. I could be wrong, as i am a novice, it wouldn't be the first time, clearly as this thread proves.

My only concern is Olive in which all areas were addressed, so please, i want no part of your debate.

 

[Monica]

Bria, I wasn't aware of that, but thank you! Many people buy parrots for their colors, not that that's a bad thing! (heck, I'd buy a blue opaline B&G macaw if I had space/time/money for one! not that I know how much they cost... and I don't think I want to know, either! LOL) I had thought that you may have gone for color, but you clearly did not! Sounds like Hazel's breeder is an excellent one if they try to 'match up' birds with buyers! I don't know many who do that!

"Naturally occurring" doesn't mean that the mutation was "produced" in the wild, it simply means that it was not intentionally bred for, the bird was not hybridized to get that color, nor did they try messing around with the birds genetics in order to attain the mutation. It simply "occurred" or "popped up" unexpectedly in someones aviary/home. Someone then took that mutation and has established it and worked with it. The red african greys were intentionally bred to be red, but it started from african greys who had already shown some extra red feathering. It's also possible for it to have occurred naturally, but I can't say that for sure. Most mutations are naturally occurring though, accept for certain mutations in lorikeets and all alexandrine mutations in Australia where hybridization was used to cross-over the mutation from one species to another. Alexandrines do have naturally occurring mutations - just not in Australia.



Sorry if I offended you, but thanks for that tidbit of info!

 

[briabelletee]

Thank you for helping me to better understand because i find it a bit complex, and only started trying to understand when i began to suspect i had a macaw disguised as GCC

I might of over reacted a bit and i too, owe you an apology. Im going to blame it on my bridezilla nerves, as my wedding is just around the corner!

But really thanks for all the info!!!

 

[maimaie]

I have enjoyed reading through this tread so much! (I am a geneticist) This kind of talk really brings out the "nerd" in me, and I have learned SO MUCH! Bird genetics are so much fun!

Bria I hope that you don't think that anyone meant anything negative toward you or your beautiful babies! Sometimes we just get very excited! I think your two darlings are beautiful, and thank you a TON for getting Olive out of that horrible situation!

 

[Monica]

Pre-congratulations on your wedding day! I hope it is everything you dreamed of, and more!




And no apologies necessary! Genetics is confusing! More so when you throw in hybrids, too! I'm still learning myself, and I still get confused!

 

[CountryChick]

I think there are breeders who are trying to breed "high red" turquoise green cheek conures - which in the turquoise mutation, the red comes out as pink...

THAT is something I'd like to see!!! Even in a photo!