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Generic breeding question

Atomiklan

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So I have no intention of massive breeding of my finches (Plan to breed once in the future and limit to two chicks), but I am curious how one avoids the problems I am about to propose.

Say you start off with a male and female as I currently have. You breed them and lets say they have clutch of six. 3 boys and 3 girls. I'm sure there are specifics to certain species, but lets try to ignore these as much as possible and just talk general.

Generally you should not house the kids with the parents (after they grow up) as eventually the kids will become sexually mature and will begin mating - brother sister, father daughter, mother son, etc. This to me should be a no brainier, ie a big NO! Also, the father will potentially become territorial and aggressive towards the other males.

So the only solution seems to be to increase your cages to three. One for the parents, and two for the kids (separate male and female cages). If you intend to continue to breed them down the road, either continue to breed the original parents, or you need to introduce a new unrelated male or female to create a new breeding pair with one of the kids.

Am I correct here in my assumptions regarding both safe breeding practices AND proper housing of offspring?

I said I wasn't going to get specific, but this makes me wonder how people control populations and pairing in open finch aviaries? How when you have 20 finches in an outside aviary, do you prevent them from inbreeding???

Thanks!
 

expressmailtome

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Speaking very generally, you are correct with both of your assumptions. I say generally as in some species it is not wise to keep multiple males together even if they are siblings.
 

finchly

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In an outside or inside aviary you remove all youngsters. I also regularly remove nests and yearly I separate out males/ females to give them a rest.
 

finchly

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I also band every baby by color in order to know which family it is from.
 

Atomiklan

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Been several months, but I am revisiting this question again please. Same exact question as originally posted above. I think I need either additional feedback or more details please. How again do you prevent inbreeding in an aviary? Sure separating them some times makes sense, but what about the non separated times? I did read from a Society breeding book that they do seem to prefer to mate for life and generally are not promiscuous. I guess that somewhat answers the question about father-daughter, mother-son, etc., but does not prevent brother-sister pairs once the chicks reach sexual maturity. Seems no matter what, you still have to separate potentially everyone or you will have a whole mess of possibly inbred finches. Parents in their own cage and male and female siblings in seperate cages. too For this reason alone I just don't yet understand how a large aviary works. I guess they either inbreed a little and you just don't let it go anywhere, or there is some additional aspect of their society that I have yet to understand. Thanks!
 

finchly

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A disconnected assortment of thoughts.......

You could purchase all unrelated pairs to start, then remove/sell all babies. You could also fill your aviary with all males (ok with societies) or all females. You could never provide nests, or remove all eggs that you find.

Yes, many people just keep the aviary with continually reproducing birds which means they have inbred pairs. I have seen these here in FL where almost everyone keeps their birds outdoors. They do not keep records so they have no idea what they’ve got.

In GENERAL I would say it is safe to breed brother-sister whose parents were entirely unrelated. But I would not go any farther than that. I have developed some healthy lines of Gouldians (Gouldians tend not to care for their babies — mine all do. That and color/conformation are what I was working toward). Once you have a good line, you suddenly have everyone related. My vet told me that’s how it goes.

In allowing the brother-sister breeding, let’s imagine you start with 6 finches (3 pairs). The first year, each pair builds a nest and produces 4 clutches of 3 babies each. Now your aviary has 42 birds. That’s probably plenty for the average aviary! So at that point, take away nests/eggs and don’t let them breed.

Or keep breeding them and you have an overpopulated, filthy place...this is generally what I see around here...and they decide to send the whole crowd to the rescue because they can’t keep up with it.
 

JLcribber

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How again do you prevent inbreeding in an aviary?
It's a no brainer Andrew. You focus your abundance energy in a different direction because the only reason your doing this is for your own ego. Makes me very sad.
 

finchly

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It's a no brainer Andrew. You focus your abundance energy in a different direction because the only reason your doing this is for your own ego. Makes me very sad.
John, I believe he is trying to PREVENT breeding. Including inbreeding.

And @Atomiklan this points to the reason you do not get many responses on your question, IMO. People on this board are anti-breeders, therefore not many who breed hang around.
 

Atomiklan

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Yup that's correct. John, I am trying my best to prevent this at all costs. Now I would like for Charlie and Emma to be parents at least once, but I want to make sure I can do it in a way that is safe and responsible and so I am trying to plan ahead and understand how I need to prepare to house them in the future. The rest of the question was just a hypothetical wondering how other people manage to do things. I didn't understand how it was possible without people just not caring. I think @finchly is right and you completely misunderstood my motive/questioning.
 

Atomiklan

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I'm just asking questions trying to be responsible. :(
 
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finchly

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It's ok Andrew. When people are all-or-nothing they miss out on opportunities to help others. Many, many people both online and IRL believe you are a breeder, or a rescuer, but not both.

The fact is if we all bent a little the other way, we could educate one another. People who breed indiscriminately would learn why that isn't a good idea, and people who rescue would learn there are good aspects to breeding. All in all that would result in fewer poor-bred birds, therefore fewer behavior problems and physical issues, therefore fewer rescues. Plus the overall breed standard would improve. Win-win.

I have a breeder friend who houses over 200 rescues of her breed of choice ( parrots, not finches), and she also has a small number of breeding pairs. Others say "oh she's a breeder, she doesn't rescue" -- completely discounting the fact that she feeds, houses, pays for vet bills, and buys toys for the 200+ extras! Can you imagine her costs? And she tries to give all of them out of cage time and one on one time. It is mind boggling. She told me the majority of her rescues have come from older couples who can't take care of them any more or are moving into a nursing home. The little bit of money she makes from breeding gets ploughed back into the costs of upkeep.

I feel that I'm the same way (though on a much smaller scale). I have rescue birds, and I have pets I've purchased. And I have my breeder pairs. That doesn't make my rescues any less thankful that they came to me (Just ask Ernie!). I try to see both points of view.

Then there was that breeder here in FL who, when the hurricane hit, BEGGED for help. And got ignored/turned away because she was a breeder, not a rescue. NOT FAIR to the birds, I say. A bird is a bird is a bird, and if they need help we should do anything in our power to help them.
 

JLcribber

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Yup that's correct. John, I am trying my best to prevent this at all costs. Now I would like for Charlie and Emma to be parents at least once, but I want to make sure I can do it in a way that is safe and responsible and so I am trying to plan ahead and understand how I need to prepare to house them in the future. The rest of the question was just a hypothetical wondering how other people manage to do things. I didn't understand how it was possible without people just not caring. I think @finchly is right and you completely misunderstood my motive/questioning.
I apologize sincerely. The solution to your dilemma is ever expanding environments. Connected yet separate. You’re going to need more real estate. :)
 

JLcribber

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Or you could just go around collecting all those eggs, replacing them with fakes and maintain what you have.
 

finchly

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Oh - Andrew. You might check out your area and see how many society finches and zebra finches are sent to rescue (say, on a monthly basis) and keep an eye on Craigslist and Hoobly to see how many are advertised. That will give you an idea of how saturated the market is. If you are going to breed C & E you want to be sure there will be a home for the babies.

I met a man who raised zebra finches here. He had a flight cage....with a small cage sticking out from one side.....with a small cage on top....with another sticking out....in other words he had expanded and expanded but could not keep up with the population explosion. And it truly is an explosion, if you do the math. He literally cried and begged us to take some of them. (I am a sucker. I took 6)

In my area you would not want to breed zebras or cockatiels...can't tell you how many cockatiels there are. Mine are 2 girls, not bonded and sometimes not even friends. they tolerate each other. I would love to get more so they'd have a "real" friend. But that would have to be 2 more females, or 2 males but no nests/no eggs ever. I simply won't do it, there are way too many around.

So, just plan ahead and you'll be fine. Be strong and resist the urge to breed if you are not SURE you can find a home for the babies.
 

Atomiklan

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Perhaps I should use a different term other than breeding. Seems breeding is rather one sided in the bird world and usually means someone that intends to raise massive amounts of birds for the purpose of selling. Clearly the word can take on many meanings and context, but from the stereotypical point of view, yes I totally agree and don't want to be misunderstood there. I am in no way interested in ANY of that. I do NOT wish to become a "breeder". It seems I am also misunderstood in the respect that I am not interested in breeding just for the sake of breeding, and then plan to find homes for the babies. Quite the opposite. I am ready to be a finch granddaddy and want to expand my finchy flock with some little ones that I can love and spoil to no end. I had always considered allowing Charlie and Emma to raise a single (but limited) clutch of eggs (More on this in a bit). I would love for them to have two or three little ones and to be parents themselves. I had always considered an expansion of my current cage. It is stackable. I envisioned having the two flight cages. One for the parents and one for the kids. I do like the idea of fostering too, but it is definitely not the same as doing the work and raising your own, but I guess still rewarding in a different way knowing that you gave a little one a nice permanent home. (I am doing that for Lada in a lot of ways. I am spoiling her rotten with both attention and treats) I do understand why some people don't like that idea of breeding. I guess I don't really see the problem with the scope I have in mind. Now stereotypical "breeding" and selling of birds... Yeah I get it and don't agree. I don't plan on explosive population growth. I am all too familiar with exponential growth from the nuclear perspective ;) Ideally I am just interested in having the two existing parents and two or three kids. I have purchased several society finch breeding books and am doing lots of research. I'm still not ready just yet, but I am warming up to the idea of doing this. I still hesitate for two reasons. One, not sure I am 100% ready to commit to 4 or 5 finches. I know I will be ready soon though. The second hesitation is in the execution. I know no matter how much reading and preparation I do, breeding takes time, patience, and importantly, experience... and statistically I will most likely lose a chick or two or several, and that realization makes me really sad. That's just a fact of life though.

He had a flight cage....with a small cage sticking out from one side.....with a small cage on top....with another sticking out...
With all this talk about population explosion and with your explanation above, the math nerd in me couldn't resist generating a fractal from a birdcage haha
canvas.png

I apologize sincerely.
Thanks JLcribber, I'm just trying to be smart about this, do my research, and do whats right for everyone. I know I can give Charlie and Emma, and whatever kids they have a wonderful loving home.
 
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finchly

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So cute! Love the fractal too lol!

I think you’re ready. They’ll be ready around March probably. Yes you may lose some, or they may not sit tight enough and babies die in shell. It’s all hard. And all part of it.

IMO though.... Charlie and Emma are related. As I was painting them I noticed patterns that are similar . This may not matter, and probably won’t. Just thought I’d mention it.
 

Atomiklan

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Hmm that is a VERY good point that I honestly had not considered. They came from the same location at the same time. Chances are probably very high you are correct. Well poo... From a long term standpoint with many generations expected, I would expect this to be a very bad idea. Should I avoid it all together even with just a single line of kids planned? I would hate for this to cause a possible genetic defect for example that causes a lower quality of life in the offspring. Don't think I could introduce a new mate either (at least from all that I have read) now that Charlie and Emma are paired up. This definitely throws a potential monkey wrench into the works.
 

finchly

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It’s all going to depend on the gene pool and how many times those were inbred.

The coloration states that each one had fawn in the background... you’d probably be safe breeding them.
 
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