• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Feeding a Raw Diet

Status
Not open for further replies.

Birdasaurus

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
10/17/09
Messages
4,990
Location
Suburb of Chicago, IL
Real Name
Andrea
I'm looking to convert my Pepper (22lb shih-tzu) onto a raw diet. I've been looking online, but all I find is the benefits and such, which is great and all, but I don't know where to begin really. I have silly questions like, how do I give him the meat? On the bone? Cut up? Ground? Do I ever cook it, or are they just naturally immune to all the yucky stuff that comes on raw meat? Do I mix it with anything? :huh:

So if any of you feed raw diets, especially to smaller dogs, I'd appreciate hearing about what you give, when you give it, how much you give...etc.

Thanks!
 

Cydney

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
10/16/09
Messages
1,925
Location
Ohio
Real Name
Cydney
I don't actually have a dog, but I have done quite a bit of reading on prey model raw as I'd like to feed PMR to a future dog. :) From what I've understood, most people recommend a 'cold turkey' switch from kibble to raw (sometimes after fasting a day) as the kibble is much more slowly digested and supposedly has the potential to cause problems. The majority of things I've read also recommend to start with chicken (usually backs and thighs) and not mix proteins for a few weeks until you get the ratios straightened out. Chicken bones are supposed to be softer and a little easier to crunch for dogs starting on raw. I think the ratio of meat/bone/organs is 80/10/10 with at least half of the organ meat being liver, but it really depends on the dog. Soft or 'wet' stools, feed more bone. Hard chalky stools, feed less bone and more muscle meat. Explosive stools can also indicate too much organ meat. It's really more about adjusting the ratios to your dog than it is an exact science. After you get the raw chicken, pick another protein to try.

The meat/bone is fed whole and intact, preferably without pieces that can be choked on. It takes 6-12 months for a dog to fully adjust to raw (supposedly then they could swallow a whole bone and the acid in their stomach would be able to break it down..?). Cooking it denatures the nutrients and thus isn't as 'complete' of a diet. I think the biggest concern for a lot of people switching to raw (myself included) was the potential for bacteria like Salmonella, which I've found is NOT a problem in healthy dogs. Apparently even kibble fed dogs often shed Salmonella (they eat dead things off the ground, lick each other, lick themselves etc.)

Here are some helpful links and a forum.

Raw Feeding
Raw Fed Dogs | Feeding the way Mother Nature intended!!!
RawFed.com Home Page
Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats
 

avianantics

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
12/18/09
Messages
2,981
Location
Fountain Inn, SC
Real Name
Shelly Wing
I feed Prey Model Raw to Mr. Doberdude. Not a small dog, but the basics are the same. Feel free to PM or email me if you have questions. I have walked many people through getting started on a raw diet. It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you do, you will probably never feed kibble again.
 

Cydney

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
10/16/09
Messages
1,925
Location
Ohio
Real Name
Cydney
I'd love to hear about it as well, Shelly. As I said, I currently don't have a dog so any of the information I've posted is simply what I've read, but I want to be prepared for when I DO get my dog in 6 months or so. Feel free to correct anything I mentioned!
 

avianantics

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
12/18/09
Messages
2,981
Location
Fountain Inn, SC
Real Name
Shelly Wing
Actually it is pretty simple. Most of us grew up feeding dogs dry dog food and the transition is much more difficult for us than for the dogs. We tend to over think the entire process and get frustrated.

It really is very simple, if you follow a few rules.

Feed 2-3% of your dogs adult body weight (or expected adult weight for puppies). Example: My 90# Doberman gets 2.5# (or 40ozs) per day, divided between 2 meals. This amount is adjusted up or down, if he is looking chubby or lean.

A typical prey model diet is approx 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ (half of which, or 5% being liver). The amount of bone your dog requires may be more or less than my dog requires, you just have to play with it. If you are getting loose stools add a bit more bone, if stools are dry, white and powdery (while this is great for clean up), it is an indication of too much bone in the diet. NOTE - You will NOT get the same stool from raw that you do from kibble. Stools will be smaller, less frequent and somewhat less formed.

Organ is Liver, Kidney and Pancreas. Many things that people consider 'organ' is actually muscle meat, such as heart. Bone is "edible" bone, i.e. - rib, neck or back. Weight bearing bones (leg bones) are not edible and can break or crack teeth. You can feed large dogs small animal weight bearing bones, for instance my 90# Doberman can easily eat a leg bone from a Goat, Rabbit, Muskrat, etc.

Never feed Cooked Bones - cooked bones splinter, raw bones do not.

Never feed enhanced meat. You can tell if meat is enhanced by checking the sodium content which should never be above 80gm.

This ratio is over time, so your dog does NOT need to eat 80/10/10 every meal or even every day. Once you get through the transition stage (3-6 weeks), you dog can eat all meat meals with a regular bone meal, or a little bone with every meal, organ daily or once or twice a week. Whatever works best for you.

Start with a single protein source, such as chicken. During the transition time (3-6 weeks) do not feed organ meats. I started Wheeler on Chicken. I purchased whole chickens cut them into quarters, removed most of the skin and he ate 1/4 chicken in the morning and 1/4 chicken in the evening, for about 3 weeks.

Week 3- I added Beef, 3-4 ounces, morning and night (I took away 3-4 ounces of chicken so I kept the meal size the same)
Week 4 - I added Pork, about 3-4 ounces morning and night (so now he was getting Chicken, Beef and Pork)
Week 5 - I added Deer, 3-4 ounces, morning and night (meals consisted of Chicken, Beef, Pork and Venison)
Week 6 - I added Organ - a teeny, tiny bit -- like a piece about the size of a nickel, once per day, and gradually increased the amount to about an ounce per day.
Weeks 7-12 - I gradually added other meats; Rabbit, Muskrat, Lamb, Elk, Fish, Goat, Alpaca, etc.

Wheeler is 2-1/2 years old and has been on a raw diet since he was 9 months old. Now, I take 1 afternoon a month, cut up his meat and package meals individually. I feed a mixed grill -- I have a food scale and I cut up everything I have available; beef heart, Tripe, Beef Muscle strips, Rabbit chunks, Lamb, Pork, Bison, Alpaca, etc. and I put a little bit of everything into a freezer bag, including a Chicken thigh or leg (this provides bone and fat from the skin), and an approx 1 ounce piece of organ (liver, kidney or pancreas), until the bag weighs btw 1.2 and 1.4#, and that is one meal. When I can get Beef calf chunks, I replace the chicken pieces with that as they contain bone. I also purchased some whole ground beef, lamb, alpaca, bison, etc. This is meat, bone and organ all ground up like hamburger. I will include a bit of ground and some whole chunks in a single meal.

Once a week Wheeler gets a whole turkey neck, this keeps teeth nice and clean. I also feed Beef trachea and beef gullet whole for recreational chewing.

I feed no veggies, no fruit, no carbs. (Although Wheeler loves lettuce and Melon and I do share with him sometimes :). And.........before anybody gets worried, I have a chem panel run on him every 6 months, and much to my Vet's chagrin, it is always perfect. (My Vet isn't a fan of raw feeding, although he is open minded, he is just afraid of it as many people are).

It is important that you feed pieces/chunks that can be easily swallowed OR that are far too large to be swallowed whole and IMO you should always supervise while the dog is eating, just to be safe. I have never had a problem.

That is a crash course in raw feeding 101. There are many good forums and websites as well as books that deal with raw diets. A great place to start is the Raw Feeding Yahoo Group and the educational links on My Pet Carnivore.

I am no expert, but I did do my research, have bred and raised dogs for most of my life and am happy to share what I have learned.

I will NEVER feed kibble again, when I learned that most Dog Food Companies, including PREMIUM dog food companies, render dead dogs and cats obtained from Vets and Shelters as a protein source for the dog food -- my kibble days were over!

Here are some links regarding commercial kibble:

The Truth about Commercial Dog Food

Petsumer Report
 

Euphoria

Jogging around the block
Joined
7/24/11
Messages
939
Location
Clute, Texas
Real Name
Kat
yea ground up is great its easier to digest. i buy ground up chicken for my dog all the time its one of the best things u can givethem plus u dont have to worry about the bones and such.
 

Birdasaurus

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
10/17/09
Messages
4,990
Location
Suburb of Chicago, IL
Real Name
Andrea
Thank you Shelly! That was very helpful to get the crash course in what you have done! I'm off to buy him some chicken pieces tomorrow...$.79 a lb for chicken quarters...I like this diet already :D
 

Cydney

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
10/16/09
Messages
1,925
Location
Ohio
Real Name
Cydney
I saw that you had jumped in on the Dog Food Chat forum! They seem really helpful over there.
 

Meatball

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Joined
1/20/11
Messages
13,857
:omg: Shelly those links you provided are disturbing!!!!!!!!!! I never knew! I though because I was feeding my cats expensive all natural cat food it was good for them! I wonder how they would feel about raw, they are not typical hunter cats, they are lazy Persians!:rolleyes:
 

Birdasaurus

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
10/17/09
Messages
4,990
Location
Suburb of Chicago, IL
Real Name
Andrea
lol yes some of the pic can be quite....surprising. I saw one of a dog and a llama head...that one turned my stomach. Blech.... That and dogs chewing on chicken feet.

Cydney, thanks for sending me that direction! They were helpful!
 

singermanlynne

Sprinting down the street
Avenue Veteran
Joined
5/22/11
Messages
468
Location
Houston, Texas ( in the Loop )
Real Name
Lynne Singerman
Hi, I have been feeding my dogs raw since they came home as puppies because the breeder weaned them to raw. Even as tiny puppies they got a RAW chicken neck for breakfast ( I always removed the skin though if you get this from Whole Food you don't have to ) next I feed a mixture the breeder sold me of organ meats - chicken and chicken bone - and raw veg. that she mashed into a dog food mush. They loved it and had white teeth and sweet breath and small stools until Hurricane Katrina ( they were 1 and 2 years old at that time ). I lost the ability to totally feed raw so I did what I could and it became what is called a rotation diet. Some kibble ( grain free ) and raw once a day. As time went by I was feeding all kibble and I noticed the breath was not so great and the teeth were not so good, and stools were big and smelly. I wanted to switch back but I was concerned too. I started by given them the same diet but I sprinkled on top the dry raw food Stella & Chewy's - this is a 100% freeze dried product ( my dogs weigh about 28 lbs.) and I sprinkled 1/2 patty on top of 2 bowls - so you could do a quarter patty- this is expensive but it is so easy to use and to travel with. I did this every night for 2 weeks. I also gave them a tablespoon of either
pumpkin or yogart ( live culture )each morning on their kibble. ( they eat twice a day - small portions ). After 2 weeks of this I started offering the chicken necks again!!! Every other day to start for a week ( as their breakfast ) but because they are now adult and I want them to chew this I now freeze it and give them each a " Chicken Sickle ". They LOVE this!!! I get this frozen at Whole Food - 6 in a package for about $1.50 - I bring them home and defrost a little to pull off the skin and than I freeze again as single pieces. Stools were now firm and not smelly and I knew they were converted. Now they get the chicken sickle for breakfast everyday and a raw buffalo bone to chew on ( on the patio ) for about a half and hour a couple of times a week ( I take it away because they can have it again ) and their kibble with the freeze dried food sprinkled on top. Breath is now thankfully sweet again and they are very very happy. For treats they get chucks of apple or baby carrots and a couple of chicken jerky pieces I buy at Costco. If I cook and there is rice they get that also and a hard boiled egg about once a week as a treat on top of their food ( one egg for the 2 of them ). Also as a very special treat they get a small piece of cheese or a small chunk of toast with peanut butter on it. They stand very quietly while I chop up fresh for the birds as they always get a chunk of something. Hope this helps :)
 

KimKimWilliamson

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
3/24/10
Messages
4,623
Location
Calgary
Real Name
Kim Williamson
Orijen is NOT considered a raw diet, LOL

I personally have seen hundreds of dogs ont he raw diet, and can tell you that while mainstream pet food retailers will tell you its the healthiest for your pet, its actually not and there are serious health risks for your pet should you choose to go this way. Most dogs Ive met on the raw diet experience frequent diahreah and gi tract issues, become garbage hounds, food aggressive, and have trouble with thier teeth. Also, there is the risk of contamination, even when you are careful.

I know alot of people buy pre made bison patties, which seems to be the easiest way to go, but some people go to a butcher and have patties prepared fresh.

I can tell you that when we have a patient come in at the clinic on a raw diet we ALL collectively roll our eyes, as vets know its not the healthiest choice, and we all dread whether the food is the culprit for any number of symptoms. I hope you have better luck in you decision, but I suggest just switching her to a great food brand prescribed/suggested by your vet.

I switched my dogs off Orijen after a year of constant minor health complications such as over shedding, comitting, fluxuating weight, etc and went to Medi-Cal (Royal Canin) and have seen wonderous improvements in thier health and well being!
 

avianantics

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
12/18/09
Messages
2,981
Location
Fountain Inn, SC
Real Name
Shelly Wing
You have to feed your Dogs whatever works best.

Sadly, most Vet's know very little about Nutrition. In Vet School (at least in the U.S.), Nutritional education is provided by the Pet Food Companies.

I worked for a Vet in California who sold and recommended all the usual commercial foods you will find in any Vet's office. However, he fed his own dogs a raw diet, he didn't generally recommend it, however, unless he had a patient with a bloat history (it is relatively rare for a dog on a raw diet to bloat), he didn't recommend it, because you must provide variety -- you cannot stick with one protein source, you must feed a wide variety of protein sources and body parts. Many people will not take the time to seek out protein sources beyond what they can get in the Grocery Store. It is also, IMO, important to have bloodwork done twice yearly, at minimum, to make certain you are meeting nutritional needs, regardless of what you feed.

It is not a one size fits all solution. What works for my Dog may not work for yours. For *my* dog, raw works. He is a Best In Show Winning, dual Champion, he has no doggie odor, no doggie breath, no stinky gas, an amazing coat, ultra clean teeth, and is in exceptional overall condition.

Before making any diet change for your dog, you need to do due diligence and research, know what you are doing and use the tools available (i.e. - vet exam, bloodwork) to insure you are providing adequate and proper nutrition for your dog.

Do your homework and make an educated decision before jumping in feet first. Now for your viewing pleasure:

AKC/UKC BIS CHAMPION Lyndobe's Wheel of Fortune

Valpo 3c.jpg
 

Birdasaurus

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
10/17/09
Messages
4,990
Location
Suburb of Chicago, IL
Real Name
Andrea
Orijen is NOT considered a raw diet, LOL

I personally have seen hundreds of dogs ont he raw diet, and can tell you that while mainstream pet food retailers will tell you its the healthiest for your pet, its actually not and there are serious health risks for your pet should you choose to go this way. Most dogs Ive met on the raw diet experience frequent diahreah and gi tract issues, become garbage hounds, food aggressive, and have trouble with thier teeth. Also, there is the risk of contamination, even when you are careful.

I know alot of people buy pre made bison patties, which seems to be the easiest way to go, but some people go to a butcher and have patties prepared fresh.

I can tell you that when we have a patient come in at the clinic on a raw diet we ALL collectively roll our eyes, as vets know its not the healthiest choice, and we all dread whether the food is the culprit for any number of symptoms. I hope you have better luck in you decision, but I suggest just switching her to a great food brand prescribed/suggested by your vet.

I switched my dogs off Orijen after a year of constant minor health complications such as over shedding, comitting, fluxuating weight, etc and went to Medi-Cal (Royal Canin) and have seen wonderous improvements in thier health and well being!
For this reason I don't trust traditional vets...they are taught on kibble, so they push kibble. It makes no sense that the natural diet of dogs is regarded as unhealthy, but company processed kibble is. We as parrot owners, strive to feed them as naturally as possible. So why should dogs be any different? I wouldn't give my birds all pellets...

All the shih-tzus in our neighborhood who had "spectacular" vet-approved diets died at about 10. My parents shih-tzu, who ate only people grade foods (although not raw) lived to be 16. His teeth never had a cleaning in his life, and he had all of them healthy and intact the day he passed....of old age. Could it be coincidence...of course, but part of it makes me wonder as well.

I just don't see the argument of vets to feed them something unnatural and processed...it makes no sense. Perhaps those cases you see are people who think feeding raw is simply throwing a piece of meat down for them and not actually balancing what they get. Maybe they don't work with the dog on food aggression...there's countless reasons there could be bad cases. I doubt it's the fault of the food they were meant to eat...but more the people giving it to them.

On another note, Shelly, you said about not using weight-bearing bones for small dogs....does a chicken thigh count as weight bearing to you? People were recommending that I start him on chicken thighs...and I figured they'd be small enough. What is your opinion?
Also, should I mix it up as far as boneless a few days, then with bone?
 
Last edited:

Cydney

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
10/16/09
Messages
1,925
Location
Ohio
Real Name
Cydney
I was under the impression that weight bearing bones typically meant those from larger animals (cows etc) as opposed to something with lighter bones like a chicken or duck.
 

Yoyo'sMom

Jogging around the block
Joined
4/20/11
Messages
711
Location
Cali
Real Name
Carol
I agree with what Kim said...I know we all would roll our eyes at the hospital where I worked too. One other thing to mention is the fact that your dogs can contract parasites from eating raw food.
 

Birdasaurus

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
10/17/09
Messages
4,990
Location
Suburb of Chicago, IL
Real Name
Andrea
I was under the impression that weight bearing bones typically meant those from larger animals (cows etc) as opposed to something with lighter bones like a chicken or duck.
Ok, thanks. That's what I thought too, but I can't be too careful starting out :)
 

itzmered

Welcome to Parrotdise
Super Administrator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/27/09
Messages
25,728
Location
Minnesota
Real Name
Chris
parasites in raw meat that is for human consumption is very negligible and most healthy dogs systems can handle it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top