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ESA List Question

Discussion in 'Macaw Motorway' started by MILITARYMACAW, 11/6/18.

  1. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    I tried reading older post to answer my questions, but was unsuccessful finding them.
    So here it goes..

    What is the governments intent behind not allowing birds listed on the ESA list to cross state lines? I know everyone has their own opinion, but does the government explain their decision or back it up?

    Extended travel puts that specific bird at an increased risk of survival?

    Reducing the ability to sell reduces poaching?

    Is there a benefit to the specific species by reducing the pet trade population?

    I'm having a hard time understanding the correlation between the survival of the species and and the restrictions and would like to understand. Specifically the movement of ESA listed birds across state lines.

    Have these practices worked for other animals and/or plants?

    Are these restrictions enforced by law enforcement and followed by breeders or is the information posted on their sites as a technicality?
     
    Last edited: 11/6/18
  2. Mizzely

    Mizzely Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    There can be huge fines for selling an animal on the ESA across state lines.
    "The maximum penalty for violating the ESA is one year in prison and a $100,000 fine for an individual, $200,000 for an organization. Those who engage in illegal wildlife trade under the ESA may also face prosecution under the Lacey Act's anti-trafficking provisions (maximum penalty of 5 years in prison and fines of $250,000 for an individual or $500,000 for an organization)."

    Here is a fair article about it: How Can the Endangered Species Act Protect Wildlife That Lives Outside the U.S.? | Audubon
     
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  3. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    Thanks for the read. I understand all of the points in the article. I'm still having trouble understanding the state lines part. Opinions aside...Does the pet trade hurt the natural numbers or not? If it does not, I would think it would be permitted. If it does , why is it not banned altogether? If something is bad we are taught to stop. If we something is good we keep doing it. If its neither nobody cares. Where does "we can do it some" fall?

    I know this isn't the same situation, but it reminds me of when someone says "way more people have wrecked cars from alcohol than pot". It reminds in the sense that the person is making a great argument for banning alcohol not legalizing pot. I guess its the irony of the argument part

    Are they saying that pet trade is middle bad, a little bad, or almost bad for the species existence?

    I bet this topic overly talked about. I might be setting myself up for failure looking for an explanation from the government. My best guess is they compromise on their ultimate goal to avoid backlash.
     
    Last edited: 11/6/18
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  4. Mizzely

    Mizzely Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    The easy answer is I don't know without spending more time googling to find out. I am sure that it is simply adding additional roadblocks to prevent any issues. The more hurdles, even if they are just imaginary hurdles, the more likely they are to prevent it. Lets say you somehow DO get a wild animal from the ESA into the States, and then it travels across state lines to an unaware buyer. Someone discovers the animal, and now they have to report it, just in case. If the paperwork isn't correct, there is a potential trail for them to follow in order to get ahold of the person who illegally imported it, and potentially prevent it from happening again.
     
  5. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    The comments on the article are super interesting if you haven't read them.
     
  6. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    @Mizzely I hope my words have not come across as abrasive. Im always paranoid how my words are interpreted when typed! Im not educated enough of the situation to really express an opinion or doubt the decisions that have been made. Just trying to wrap my brain around it!!:)
     
  7. Mizzely

    Mizzely Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    Oh no I wasn't interrupting your words that way at all :) I just honestly don't know enough to be able to speak to it with conviction!
     
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  8. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    Getting to the point... I would never want to put my self into a legal situation or get a reputable breeder in trouble with law enforcement.

    I would never lie or produce fake identification to obtain an endangered species.

    There are laws you can break in front of law enforcement because they are not enforced and I was wondering if this was of them.

    Kind of like dont ask don’t tell.
     
  9. Mizzely

    Mizzely Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    I'm sure some areas it is easier to enforce than others. Here in Northern Michigan I doubt anyone would even realize that some parrot species are protected by the ESA.

    Some areas though are more informed and thus much riskier. Pennsylvania, for example, is really tough on animal related things.
     
  10. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    It’s one of those questions where you’d want to be honest and ask the breeder, but it’s also one those questions where if you ask it they will tell you no because you asked.

    It would probably be best to get your vets opinion as well.
     
  11. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    No - the restrictions under the ESA do not help the survival of any species of parrot in the USA. Since 1992 it has been illegal to import any parrot (a couple of exceptions for parakeets and cockatiels). There are very few parrots imported into the US any longer and the US has a robust breeders population - no need to import and take the risks. I wonder if these ESA laws are legal. since the original ESA was intended for native species.

    The ESA restrictions on parrots angers me - it will eventually reduce the number of the species under the CITES I/ESA rules. Punish the rest of the world who export and import parrots - we don't. President Trump has reduced the restrictions by the ESA and no more parrots will have the sale and travel restrictions within the USA. I don't know what has been done about the ones that the Animal Welfare people snuck in before Trump changed the rules.
     
    Last edited: 11/7/18
  12. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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  13. MILITARYMACAW

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    @Mizzely do show birds exist? Are blood lines and lineage documented like a show dog might be?
     
  14. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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  15. Fia Baby

    Fia Baby Jogging around the block

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    My understanding is that much of this legislation aimed at eliminating the trade of non-native, domestically bred species is fueled by radical, left-wing, animals rights groups. Their aim is to eliminate ALL animal ownership - agricultural, pet, law-enforcement, etc. All of it. They are well-funded, well-organized and highly motivated. They are very insidious and very under-handed, and have done terrible things. PETA, for example, is a scary group. They are always planning to take aim at more species. So far they've managed to limit the trade of some cockatoos, buffons, militaries, blue throats. I don't know about greys, hyacinths and scarlets, but I know they were planning on adding these as well. Limiting interstate trade has no impact on exotic populations in their native countries. We haven't been able to import most of these guys, from any country, for decades, so that clearly wasn't the motive. It does create a genetic bottle-neck, which domestic populations may never re-cover from. This will limit our ability to ever re-introduce species, as we won't have been able to keep up our own viable population of healthy birds.

    Most breeders don't keep breeding records, which is truly a shame - we should be safe-guarding the genetics we have much more closely, using all the tools we have available. It can difficult, if not impossible, to resurrect a species once you lose your genetic diversity.

    If you're looking for a bird across state lines, you need to do this carefully, and I wouldn't tell anyone whom I didn't absolutely trust. You may think laws aren't being enforced, but it only takes one vocal person with an agenda to make life miserable for you...

    Hybrids of course, aren't covered by ESA restrictions.

    @Hankmacaw - I didn't realize Trump had actually acted to reduce the ESA restrictions... so he's done one thing I approve of... So, which ones still have restrictions? Is there a current list?
     
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  16. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    I - haven't done the research yet. Too lazy. But any future species (and I think the Scarlett and Hyacinth??) will not be subject to the restrictions on travel nor sales between state lines. Will have to continue to be aware of individual state laws.

    You didn't approve of the boisterous economy and the sales tax reductions?
     
  17. MILITARYMACAW

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    @Fia Baby thank you! That’s the question! Our opinions aside what are they trying to accomplish by restricting the birds from crossing state lines. Purely a road block , no pun intended, has been the overall impression I beginning to develop.
     
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  18. MILITARYMACAW

    MILITARYMACAW Meeting neighbors

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    I could be looking at an older document and it’s even more likely I’m reading it wrong but it was my understanding that
    Hyacinth and some of the others you mentioned are on the ESA list. However, within the list there is a “special list” called the special list that excludes them from the restrictions. Perhaps this means they are on deck.

    The link mentioned in the paragraph below is pasted at the bottom. Click link... Select special birds list... Scroll down and look for a small paragraph titled parrots on the special list.

    FAQs FOR PARROTS LISTED AS THREATENED
    Are there any special rules under section 4(d) of the ESA for listed parrot species?
    Yes. Some parrot species that are listed as threatened are included in a special rule for species in the parrot family (Click here for 50 CFR 17.41(c) and the list of included parrot species). Under the special rule for these parrots, all the prohibitions and provisions of the ESA apply except that the import and export of parrots that meet certain criteria and interstate commerce are allowed without a permit under the ESA, as explained below.

    Special list
    eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
     
  19. Fia Baby

    Fia Baby Jogging around the block

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    Yes - just another very savvy step in the direction of ending all animal ownership.

    I always cringe when I hear people say that no one should own birds, no one should breed birds, no one does it ethically... those people are playing right into the hands of animal rights activists by spreading the propaganda for them. That may not be their intent, but it is the consequence. It's a slippery slope, and words do have unintended consequences.

    Are you looking for another macaw?
     
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  20. MILITARYMACAW

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    @Fia Baby why? Are you a cop? Haha

    I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s what started my reading into the whole thing. I’m not rushing anything and I’d like for the bird to be behind bars. NOT ME!
     
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