Egg Bound Cockatiel, Luke [GRAPHIC]

[srtiels]

It looks like there were feces in the abdominal cavity as you could see dark patches through the skin last night

Some of the intestines should be visible thru the skin, as shown below (pix of a hen with ascites) They would be visable and look thicker if something was putting pressure on them if there was an impaction preventing the feces from entering into the cloaca to be voided.

As to the pix that should the swollen yellow abdomen that was from prolonged, and not properly treated egg yolk peritonitis and the discolored skin contained yolk that was being excreted from the body thru the skin.

any member here who is interested in learning.

You can also add to the thread with pix's of the prolapse, and also some good pix's of what was passed.

As to prolapses, from personal experience, this will not be a deterrent to laying...but a bird is going to be more suseptable to prolapses. She is going to need additional care of good lighting and also some natural sources of calcium. You can look up on this site which foods (Nutrient lists) are high in calcium: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ NOTE: most greens and veggies contain oxalic acids. These will bind useable calcium from foods. What you want to do is look for foods that have a higher calcium content than oxalic acid. The useable calcium is the difference between the two. Print out the following tables from both links:
Guinea Lynx ::Oxalic Acid in Selected Vegetables
Guinea Lynx :: Calcium Chart

 

[MoluccanZoey]

Yeah, Anna usually has tons of pictures but I think her camera is MIA at the moment. I was there when Katie the Cockatoo was seizing and I was so glad she was in Anna's care- even if I was to have rushed her to my vet (who's not an avian vet) I don't think she would have made it. Anna has lots of bird experience, which- after talking with her and comparing notes- I trust her experience more than what my vet has recommended in some cases. (Not to say Anna is the end-all voice of knowledge; but I was so convinced that my vet saved Zoey's life when she got tangled in a toy as baby. Looking back, I asked if she should be getting extra oxygen since she had her mouth open and was making gasping sounds. He said no, since she was squawking, she was getting plenty of air. Of course looking back on it...she had her mouth open with blood coming out, gasping for breath- yeah, she really could've used the oxygen. She was my first bird, and this was like a month after getting her, so I didn't question it. Now looking back...ack- I'm sorta freaked out by it. And much more likely to try to drive my birds to Alb in an emergency. I truely think Anna has saved Katie's life). I know when Anna posts she usually has things pretty well in hand. I'm happy she has a really good avian vet that she works closely with too. I'm glad things are looking up for little Luke! Pretty soon you are going to need like 3 hospital brooders just for when things hit you all at once...for little Luke, and for you- I'm sure you are very stressed by all the ill birdies! I'd tell them all to behave for you but they never listen to me anyway.
Oh and as to the section...Anna has alot of followers (I know she's new on AA, but lots of people know her and her rescue from other boards and such) so its easier to keep up on whats new with the rescue just by going to her section. I follow what she's doing, even if I'm not an (insert type of bird here)- so I might not check the cockatiel section- but then I see its one of Anna's- and then I have to read the post to find out who it is and what is going on with him/her! So having her own section makes it easier to follow what's going on in the rescue. You may not follow macaws, cockatoos, lories, amazons, whatever (I often skip individual sections)- but I always check to see what's new with MCRNM. I would have missed this thread altogether if it wasn't in that section to begin with. Although I admit to mostly hitting the "new posts" button most of the time.

 

[srtiels]

Thanks Heather I was not implying or meaning anything against her ability with birds. I read thru several of her rescue (MCRNM) threads but ususally don't respond unless they are on 911 or Healthy Highway. I would have some suggestions for treatments for Sir Dustys foot problems, but I don't like to go to other portions of the site I don't normally post at.

For others seeking advice it would be good to have the info as a double post or copied over to the specific species.

 

[FoxersArtist]

An update before bed. Luke is still stable tonight, though it looks like she did not eat much, or anything today, so she was gavage fed tonight. Her abdomin is still a little puffy but not bad compared to the way it was 24 hours ago. THANK YOU srtiels for posting that online medical book. i got the chance to read through the section you highlighted and was impressed. I will certainly be book marking that for later. I hope that I did not cause confusion or ill feelings, as if I was resisting advice. I am always open to advice, whether I agree with it or not, and always open for learning. I will, however talk with one of the admins eventually to see if we can get this thread double posted in the other section, because it would be extremely useful for me to have as reference for future as well as anyone else I may be directing here for help.

My vet called me this afternoon and we discussed Luke's situation. She told me that starting Luke on Baytril (my prefered choice in antibiotics) was the right decision as well as gently putting the prolapse back inside last night after cleaning her up a bit. I think it is important to note that Baytril is safe to use in parrots in this medical situation because it is not a drug that binds with calcium to prevent absorbtion. My vet determind that the egg (which was fully in tact, shell and all, but rotting) had adheard itself to the uterine wall and caused the entire uterus to prolapse with the egg mass firmly attached. The egg was entirely in tact when I found it. In fact, when I cut it open, it was apparent that the egg may have been fertile and there was a small mass of bloody tissue inside the egg. The entire egg was so discolored (black) that it was a bit hard to tell what was what, but I will bring it to my vet to have a look see. After reading more, I am thankful that the egg was in tact and that nothing ruptured during this process. Luke is still able to eliminate as of tonight, but she is having fewer dropping than I would prefer to see and some of them look sprayed across the paper, leading me to believe that she is still partially impacted. We have set up an appointment for Luke to see her vet and I will be eager to hear what the next steps for her are. I found my camera today and took some pictures. I will post them tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help and concern.
-Anna

 

[Anne & Gang]

still praying and sending positive thoughts in for Luke

 

[Micki]

 

[srtiels]

Thats great she is feeling better. I've included some pix's below. Did your egg that was passed look similar to the first pix? This was an egg/mass passed by a pigeon named Wonka (got permission to use/post the pix) The mass is a result from a tumor in the uterus, which is also called the shell gland. Some of it got incapsulated (it appears to be a heavy layer of bacteria) and was passed from the body.

The second pix, are from past necropsys of cockatiel hens with reproductive problems. I've made notes on the illus.

Quite possibly you can have your vet scope lLuke to see if all is normal inside of her.

Please...please, speaking from the loss of hens in the past, Baytril is a great antibiotic, but it is not going to be really effective if there are internal reproducrion problems.

 

[Thugluvgrl187]

Praying and sending good thoughts.

 

[Jeddy]

Hoping Luke gets better and better. It's great you are there to help her.

 

[FoxersArtist]

Luke's condition hasn't seemed to change much today, though she is stable as we are tube feeding and giving extra fluids. She has a vet exam first thing in the morning and we are eager to hear what the vet has to say. I am particularly concerned that she may still be partially impacted and concerned for any future reproductive cycles she may have. I will want the vet to scope her and do cultures to see which antibiotic will work best on her - a practice that is commonly suggested by her anyhow. Here are some pictures I took last night of Luke, egg, and droppings. I had actually thrown the egg out because I had little hope for finding my camera. After discovering the secret location of my camera, I decided to pull the remains of the egg from the trash to catalog its existence and maybe to bring it to the vet to show her too...which I should have thought of in the first place. Therefore, the egg has some pellet particles in it because I folded it into the newspaper before throwing it out. Keep in mind that I cut open the egg when I first found it, but it was solid, though malformed when I first found it (it was very round and not oval shaped). I got a shot of Luke lifting her wings so you can see her underside. She still looks like a sick bird, but you can see that the swelling has gone down some on her abdomin as there is no longer a "pouch" down there. The last photo is of the droppings luke had last night. They didn't look terrible - a little loose and the urates were more of a creamy white than white, white. What worries me here is that the feces looked sprayed across the paper towel, which indicates to me that there is still a partial blockage somewhere.

Luke's last egg laying cycle has been at least two months ago, maybe three. Based on the coloration of the egg and the state of deterioration, I will be interested to see if my vet thinks this egg was from a cycle so long ago. If this is the case, I will consider this a very lucky situation as Luke should likely have developed septicemia long before now.
-Anna

 

[srtiels]

The first thought that comes to mind when loooking at her is has she ever been tested for Giardia? Also, how old is she and how long have you had her? What is her eye laying history?

In looking at the matter that was passed it looks like it is old, and also consists of several softshelled eggs compressed together. What is inside looks like a chunk of tissue or a growth that may have gotten encapsulted in the uterus with the stacking of soft shelled matter. Your vet can also send it out to see what it is, but I suspect from a tumor and possibly cancer (Please just speculating)

Many years ago, before I learned the value of lighting I had eggs similar, BUT they were not discolored or had the weird contents like yours. I wished I would have saved pix's. they were a result of a laying cycle and by the time they were passed were 3 sometimes 4 softshelled eggs broken and stacked inside the uterus.

OK...here is one thing you can do to see if an egg is forming. Weigh her. Keep track for the 36-48 hours it takes to fully ovulate and lay. During ovulation there will be a slight weight gain. The average egg weighs between 5-6 grams by the time it reaches the uterus to have the shell layed down on it. Once the egg is layed the weight will drop by 5-6 grams. If the egg is not passed but stuck in the uterus, each 48 hours, if there is more eggs ovulating the weight will gradually climb per egg.

This is an idea of the time the egg is in each area of the oviduct. You can monitor weight for stages 2-4

The oviduct consists of 5 regions. Right above the oviduct is the ovary. The ovary consists of follicles which the yolk emerges from. The yolk is dropped into the funnel to the...

1...Infundibulum, which is the upper portion of the funnel. Sperm travels up the oviduct and the yolk gets fertilized here. As the yolk travels down the infundibulum it picks up the outer membrane to the yolk and the chalazae which acts to suspend the yolk in the egg. Time in this area is: 1 hour

2...Magnum, is the area where the egg white is formed which consists of: albumen, Na, Mg, and Ca. Time in this area is: 3 hours

3...Isthmus is the area where the inner and outer shell membranes are formed. Time in this area is: 1-2 hours

4...Uterus is also called the shell gland. First there is a plumping of the egg (additional H2O), and then the shell is added. Time in this area is: 20-26 hours

5...Vagina is where the cuticula is added to the exterior of the shell. Another term is oviposition, which the pointed end of the egg is facing the cloaca for expulsion from the body. Time in this area is: seconds

 

[FoxersArtist]

I am sad that Luke is going through such a trauma, but greatful to be learning new information on reproduction and reproductive disease in parrots. Luke is 10 years old. She is a bird that I purchased from a breeder at under a year of age, so we have been her only family. She started laying eggs at age two and a half and has successfully mothered 3 clutches of babies - 10 chicks total between two and a half and 4 years. She has continued to lay up to three clutches per year - 5 to 7 eggs each, though we did not allow her to hatch them after those first years as we had started to become more serious with rescue work and chose to become uninvolved in breeding anything. I asked my husband about the lighting in our aviary because I recall doing a great deal of research about full spectrum lighting when we built it. He says our lighting is full spectrum, which I had quite honestly forgotten. That brings up an interesting question though. Don't full spectrum bulbs need to be changed at a certain length of time to be effective, even if the bulb works? That addition has been in place for almost 3 years and I am guessing those bulbs may no longer be good, even if they still light up. Luke does not have a history of egg binding or other reproductive problems and does not have a history of any other medical condition. She has been tested multiple times for giardia and while under the care of her first vet (who was not an avian vet and did not know avian medicine) she was given multiple treatments for giardia, despite having negative test results - just because.

Those reproductive cases I have worked with through my rescued birds have been few though we did have a similar case earlier this year. The egg in the hen was still present at death and had become calcified inside the uterus instead of being expelled or causing sepsis. Necropsy showed wide spread systemic cancer present in all major organ systems which was the cause of death. It is hard to say whether the cancer caused the egg binding or whether the egg paved the way for cancer. I usually stand in on necropsies but was abscent on this one and wish I had not been. My vet said the findings were very, very interesting. I have a feeling that Luke's situation is more than just a random case of egg binding and am prepared to hear that egg binding may be the symptom of a greater problem. Thanks again for the interesting information.
-Anna

 

[Billie Faye]

[SIZE=-2]Source: www.wisc.edu/ansci_repro/lec/lec1/female_hist.html

Taken from:​

Avian Reproduction

here is another good reproduction sites if you haven't seen them..
Winged Wisdom Pet Bird Magazine - The Incredible Female Bird Reproductive System- Pet Birds


Great job Susanne!​

[/SIZE]

 

[MoluccanZoey]

As far as I know most full spectrum lights (if they are like reptile lights- UVA and UVB) have to be changed yearly to be effective.

 

[srtiels]

Yes...Full Spectrum (FSL) does lose it's potency and become ineffective but offhand I can not recall how long that can be...BUT, I do think yours is too old and ineffective. In a pinch until I could get FSL bulbs I have gone to Home Depot and bought sunlight bulbs, which also appeared to stave off reproduction problems when I had hens inside. And I use those with my mousebirds.

When you see your vet you might ask her/him to check the intestinal pH in her droppings. When the pH is higher than 6.5, absorption of phosphorus markedly decreases. Excess free fatty acids in the diet can cause the pH to decrease and therefore, interfere with calcium and phosphorus absorption.

Also, if she does bloodwork she might want to check the phosphorus levels.
High levels of phosphorus in the blood will inhibit the mobilization of calcium from bone. When this occurs this increases the chances of softshelled eggs which can lead to impactions and binding.

An average eggshell contains (below) If she is ovulating these minerals should show up in the bloodwork. The calcium carbonite would not be in this high of amount in bloodwork unless the egg is in the shell gland and the body is drawing from the bones.

Calcium carbonate: 94-97%
Phosphorus: 0.3%
Magnesium: 0.2%
Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron and Copper: traces
Organic matter: 2%

 

[southernbirds]

Susanne...you are an amazing person. You sound like someone who has a post doctoral in physiology. I am very impressed. You are a tremendous resource to everyone and so giving of your time and patience.

 

[srtiels]

Cherry...my birds taught me well over the years. Some gave their lives for my knowledge

 

[southernbirds]

I am humbled by your response. I have a great deal of respect for your science.

 

[FoxersArtist]

Luke went to the vet this morning to have an exam. Her vet thinks she is looking very well (all things considered) and gave me a green light to put her mate in with her to try to stimulate her to eat on her own (we have been tube feeding). She says there is still a little bit of swelling but she is healing nicely. She said the egg was a single, soft shelled egg that had started to decompose in the uterus. She was a bit surprised that Luke did not become septic much earlier, but said that sometimes when an egg doesn't rupture, it will just sit and sit in there, undetected and unable to pass. Luke was given a shot of vitamins and directed me to give her bone meal, orally, for a while to build up calcium. She also drew blood for labs to see where Luke is at. She did not suspect cancer or a ruptured oviduct. Because of Luke's history of egg laying and the extent of the prolapse, we opted to schedule Luke for a Spay one month from now to avoid a repeat of this situation in the future. She indicated that the spray of feces that luke keeps having is due to some swelling present and should go down within a few days. She wants us to continue the antibiotic for at least another 5 days and we will be pampering Luke for the next month to prepare her for her surgery.
-Anna

 

[Tiger]

It is so good to hear that Lukeid making good progress! I will continue to pray for her complete healing and health! Get better soon Luke! Anna i have been keeping up on all of your posts and want to say that you are awesome with birds. You know so much and do your best to make them better when they are ill. Please keep up the wonderful work that you do to help find birds new homes and help bring back from illness. Please keep it up!

Michael-budgie
Jett Jett-budgie
Dakota-GCC