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Do you ever feel guilty about aviculture?

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Afleetalex

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Sometimes I do yes. But then I remember that I'm not supporting the aviculture industry as Apache is a foster bird. But I still feel bad for him as he was an ex-breeding bird.
 

Cephus

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Actually I'd guess that MOST of us only have rescue or captive bred parrots, but just the fact that we own them puts a demand on wild caught parrots. African Greys are one of the most common wild caught parrots in the wild because they are so drawn popular and all of our adorable and sweet YouTube videos spread around the world and make people in other countries, where they AREN'T able to be captive bred (not enough population), put a demand on wild caught ones. We might not be the ones purchasing wild caught parrots but we are definitely creating a demand for them.

I'm on an African Grey "Action Group" on Facebook that updates on the status of wild African Grey conservation and some of the photos they share of smuggled African Greys-- 25 of them in one tiny wire travel cage stuffed in there like sardines, literally-- it's pretty sobering.
No, *WE* don't put a demand on wild caught birds because we don't buy wild caught birds. If we only buy from responsible breeders, we have absolutely zero responsibility for birds taken out of the wild. I'm not creating a demand for anything, I refuse to purchase or own wild caught birds. I don't feel the need to take responsibility for anyone but myself.
 

Bokkapooh

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No, *WE* don't put a demand on wild caught birds because we don't buy wild caught birds. If we only buy from responsible breeders, we have absolutely zero responsibility for birds taken out of the wild. I'm not creating a demand for anything, I refuse to purchase or own wild caught birds. I don't feel the need to take responsibility for anyone but myself.
*We* may not (whatever classifies in the "We" department), but Aviculture does. We companion parrot owners love our companion parrots. Sure we can buy from responsible breeders, etc. But we started importing millions and millions of wild caught birds before 1992. We now have breeders. However, what about countries who aren't like us? Who are just getting into Aviculture? We Americans can support captive bred birds, but most countries cannot. So the wild birds will always be ripped from their homes, many/most killed in the process, all in the name of Aviculture. Yes I am guilty and ashamed. I cannot see how people cannot be.
 

jmfleish

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Actually, if you stopped captive breeding, the numbers of birds being removed from the wild would increase exponentially. So, in this instance, it's probably better that we have breeders. I also agree that just because we own parrots doesn't mean that we are responsible for the birds being poached from their naitive habitat. That occurs mostly because naitive people are just trying to earn a living in many instances. There is greed as well, but, at least those of us in the US are hardly responsible for this. It's been illegal to import birds into the US since 1992.
 

Cephus

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*We* may not (whatever classifies in the "We" department), but Aviculture does. We companion parrot owners love our companion parrots. Sure we can buy from responsible breeders, etc. But we started importing millions and millions of wild caught birds before 1992. We now have breeders. However, what about countries who aren't like us? Who are just getting into Aviculture? We Americans can support captive bred birds, but most countries cannot. So the wild birds will always be ripped from their homes, many/most killed in the process, all in the name of Aviculture. Yes I am guilty and ashamed. I cannot see how people cannot be.
Funny, I didn't personally import a single wild caught bird, thus I am not responsible for those who did. I cannot be held responsible for anything I didn't personally do. It doesn't matter to me what happens around the world, I'm not responsible for that either. It's one thing to hate what's going on, but this thread is specifically about feeling guilt. How can one feel guilty over something they personally haven't done?
 

jmfleish

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*We* may not (whatever classifies in the "We" department), but Aviculture does. We companion parrot owners love our companion parrots. Sure we can buy from responsible breeders, etc. But we started importing millions and millions of wild caught birds before 1992. We now have breeders. However, what about countries who aren't like us? Who are just getting into Aviculture? We Americans can support captive bred birds, but most countries cannot. So the wild birds will always be ripped from their homes, many/most killed in the process, all in the name of Aviculture. Yes I am guilty and ashamed. I cannot see how people cannot be.
Why should I feel guilty for what another country is or is not doing? Especially when there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop this...nope, once again, I refuse to feel guilty for this.
 

Bokkapooh

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As Coco stated, other countries who do not have captive breeders, see videos of our wonderful birds, and see pictures, and they want that. Whether anyone agrees or not, we inadvertently encourage people of everywhere that pet birds are awesome. We may not physically have anything to do with the imports but we still have an impact. Like commercials and cage companies that show a large bird in a small cage, sure they are only showing, they don't PHYSICALLY have a hand to make people think that is ok, they just do. So I see the same with wild birds, we may physically have nothing to do with them importing, but our fabulous videos really encourages them as they want what we have.
 

Cephus

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As Coco stated, other countries who do not have captive breeders, see videos of our wonderful birds, and see pictures, and they want that. Whether anyone agrees or not, we inadvertently encourage people of everywhere that pet birds are awesome. We may not physically have anything to do with the imports but we still have an impact. Like commercials and cage companies that show a large bird in a small cage, sure they are only showing, they don't PHYSICALLY have a hand to make people think that is ok, they just do. So I see the same with wild birds, we may physically have nothing to do with them importing, but our fabulous videos really encourages them as they want what we have.
That's still not our fault. The reason we have pet birds, or any pets at all, is because they are awesome. We're still not responsible for what anyone but ourselves do. I have no part whatsoever in what anyone else does, especially in another country. I don't post videos of my birds, I never recommend anything but responsible pet ownership and if people do stupid things, that's not my fault in any way, shape or form.

You know, I'd think someone who felt truly guilty about this would simply stop owning birds. Guilt over something that one refuses to stop doing makes no sense.
 

Sunnyside

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I don't care if they are captive or wild caught. Either way, WE are taking a wild animal and forcing them to live under the circumstances WE deem fair.

Yes, I feel guilty.
 

jmfleish

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That's still not our fault. The reason we have pet birds, or any pets at all, is because they are awesome. We're still not responsible for what anyone but ourselves do. I have no part whatsoever in what anyone else does, especially in another country. I don't post videos of my birds, I never recommend anything but responsible pet ownership and if people do stupid things, that's not my fault in any way, shape or form.

You know, I'd think someone who felt truly guilty about this would simply stop owning birds. Guilt over something that one refuses to stop doing makes no sense.
I agree completely...if you feel that guilty about it, then why in the world do you own birds at all...
 

ILoveTiels

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I do, but then i think of them getting hurt or showing signs of illness that may be over looked in a large population and i want them right where they are. Charlie has adjusted well to having 5 other birds in the home, but he still talks and enjoys his "mommy time" too. I believe he can be happy either way. but if we are both happy with him being home, that's the way it will be. :)
 

Sunnyside

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And yet, you have five birds...
That is correct, I have 5 birds. 4 rescues and 1 I bought but she is captive bred :rolleyes:. These guys are NOT pets, they are not domesticated, they are wild animals. I do my best but yes, I am guilty. I don't understand why you want to make them 'pets'? You do understand they are not domesticated animals?
 

Holiday

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I have mixed feelings on this topic, as I've posted before, and my views change depending on whether we're talking about specific cases or the bigger picture. We probably need to take both into account. So, in a nutshell, on the personal level, I don't feel guilty for the ones I've taken out of the rehome cycle, no (I feel pretty good about that, actually, although I worry what will happen to them when I'm gone), but I do feel some guilt for buying the babies I have bought in the past, because I don't really think bird breeding for the pet market in general is a good thing (mostly because I think most humans are far too selfish and ignorant to properly care for a parrot and because treating birds like commodities means inevitably that the more the market is flooded, the poorer the care of the animals will be). I've seen enough unwanted birds, enough neglect and abuse out there, enough disease and misery, and far, far too many birds in substandard housing, to think that this thing we call aviculture is generally good for pet birds at this point. Sure, looking at Saroj's or Ferdinand's birds, it doesn't look too bad, but if I broaden my view and look on petfinder or at a shelter website, then suddenly those happy birds are dwarfed by a mountain of misery. Suddenly, there are birds with untreated sinus infections, birds with broken wings from being beaten with brooms, birds who mutilate, and birds with stereotypies that rock back and forth in endless, droning suffering. Thousands of them. Do I think no bird is ever happy or safe in captivity? No. I think, on an individual basis, some are probably pretty darn content. Do I think captivity and selling birds as commodities is good generally? No, I don't.
 

suileeka

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And yet, you have five birds...
Human beings are capable of contradictory desires and feelings, and of making choices that may not 100% live up to their personal ethics. In the case of 'pet ownership', we often have to make decisions based on the reality of the world, and not on the world that we would find ideal (in my case, that would be no 'ownership' of other living creatures). The reality is that there are captive birds that need homes, whether we personally agree with breeding or the original capture of the birds that supplied the breeding stock.

I have purchased just-weaned birds from a breeder - that's a violation of my personal ethics, because it's a direct support of the aviculture and breeding industry. I own up to that. It was a selfish choice, not an altruistic one.

I have also taken in birds from other private homes. I don't consider that a violation of my ideals, because my money did not go to support the industry.

Providing the captive birds that already exist with safe, stimulating environments where they can live out the rest of their lives is the best we can do, and is not, in my opinion, a contradiction for those of us that believe birds should not be in captivity.
 

Cephus

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That is correct, I have 5 birds. 4 rescues and 1 I bought but she is captive bred :rolleyes:. These guys are NOT pets, they are not domesticated, they are wild animals. I do my best but yes, I am guilty. I don't understand why you want to make them 'pets'? You do understand they are not domesticated animals?
Yet you're still doing something for which you claim to feel guilty, yet continue to do it. I'm not being critical of you, I think it's great that you have rescued birds, you deserve a lot of credit for that. However, the reality is, the birds we have in our homes are domesticated. Certainly they haven't been for as long as dogs and cats, but if we let them go into the wild, they wouldn't survive, they simply do not have the instincts or the knowledge to find their own food and avoid danger. Those are things they've turned over to us. We provide for their biological needs, they provide enjoyment for us. It's a reciprocal relationship, just like any dog or cat. Further, we breed for color and temperament, two things that further limit their ability to survive in the wild. Like it or not, they are domesticated.

I've got my GCC sitting on my shoulder right now. He's never seen the outside world. Neither have his parents. Or their parents. Or their parents. I don't know how many generations you'd have to go back before you'd find a bird that came from the wild. He wouldn't know what to do with himself outside the front door. He counts on me for his survival. Why should I feel at all guilty over that?
 

Cephus

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I have also taken in birds from other private homes. I don't consider that a violation of my ideals, because my money did not go to support the industry.

Providing the captive birds that already exist with safe, stimulating environments where they can live out the rest of their lives is the best we can do, and is not, in my opinion, a contradiction for those of us that believe birds should not be in captivity.
Yet every penny you spend on food, on cages, on toys, on veterinary care, all indirectly supports the industry. These are businesses that would not survive, but for the growing pet bird industry.
 

Sparkles

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I would say that some of you are missing the bigger picture. In USA there are milions of parrots kept as pets and that number is raising rapidly. Most wild cought animals do find their way in the USA market. Is that something you should be feeling guilty about? Depends on what you think when you say "guilty". Parrots are wild animals, no matter how much you handfeed them. They have strong instincts which are not and won't be gone for decades from now.

I do feel guilty but in terms of not trying hard enough to educate people about parrots. I'm an admin of a parrot forum in my mother tounge and I'm trying to do my best to teach people about proper care, sometimes I fail sometimes I suceed. We can close our eyes and say- I'm taking good care of my parrot and you're not and not to try to teach that person how to do a better job. But, honesty, what good would that do? It's like when you see someone hit a child and not do anything about it. Education is the key!!

Raising the awareness that there are wild cought parrots in your country/area is good and with proper education you will light up a path that people do their reading on parrots BEFORE they buy one and that fewer parrots will find their way on someone's door steps.

In my oppinion, it all boils down to education and the will to pass it on.
 

Sunnyside

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I am sorry Brian but I wholeheartedly disagree with you. These are wild animals, like it or not. It is when people think they are domesticated that problems arise, usually.

Read Lindsay's post. She really nails it on my hypocrisy, very good post.
 
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