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Do any of you have a bird with PDD and other birds?

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Tangle Elf

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Judy is on metacam. My concern with wanting to know is concern for the other birds. Judy was just about to move in with Korbin Dallas...into a double cage anyway.
 

allison

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I remember a member having their bird tested for ABV several times and it coming back negative each time but they confirmed PDD upon necropsy after the bird passed. This leads me to believe that ABV may not be linked to PDD at all. It's estimated that 60% of all birds will test positive for ABV and only a small percentage of those birds will ever get PDD so it could be completely unrelated. As far as I'm concerned there is no reliable blood test for PDD and crop biopsies are pretty invasive. Have you tested her for heavy metal and vitamin deficiencies? I would rule out everything else first and watch for other symptoms such as regurgitation, undigested food, weight loss, etc and treat for PDD if you notice other symptoms. I wouldn't waste my money on testing for PDD if you think she has it, just start treatment.
 

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I think a complete chem blood test needs to be done and a heavy metal testing over AVB, if it hasn't already been done.
 

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Jen, I know when the words PDD come out of your vets mouth you become very narrow minded. You see symptoms and have a hard time believing anything but. Please take a step back, If you test for ABV and it is neg.. it means nothing. If you test for it and it is pos.. it really means nothing. My GW had a stroke last year. She could not perch, had weakness on her left side and forgot how to eat some foods. She would look at me as if she did not know me. It was very scary. She did finally recover. Vet wanted to test for ABV. Korbel was tested for ABV 4 times during his illness. The vet swore... and I mean swore it was PDD. After bunches of crop washes he finally showed AGY. The vet asked if I wanted to put down my PDD bird and I said no.... test him for something else again and agian. AGY did not show up the first few tests. My BG Greg ( age 62 ) was losing weight and feathers in his old age and began to be weird upstairs, vet again wanted to test for ABV. I declined and a few months later I have to put him down. I had him sent for every test after he was gone, no PDD. I could go on with yet another bird but that is just it, it is all crap. While they are alive you will know nothing for sure. I agree with jen (jmfleish) all of it is a waste of time and money. You would be better off to just try the meds for PDD and seeing if it helps before bothering to test for it.


You and your flock are in my thoughts and prayers!!!!!

:hug8::hug8::hug8::hug8:
 

Tangle Elf

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I think a complete chem blood test needs to be done and a heavy metal testing over AVB, if it hasn't already been done.
They've been done. She's had 4 cbcs (2 of them because of this) over the last 2 months. Heavy metal poisoning has been done. Any other blood work I know of has been done. At this point, PDD is just a possibility. It's just one of the many things that can cause neuro problems. She doesn't have gastrointestinal problems, but pdd can be gastro, neuro or both. It's not the most likely suspect, its the worst scenario. If I can be prepared for the worst case scenario, everything else is easy.

As far as trying an anti-inflamatory and seeing if it works, Judy was on metacam for a month with no symptoms. This started about a month after she was off of it. It's probably coincidence, but i don't know that.
 
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Bokkapooh

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It does seem like strokes and siezures and not recognizing their once favorite human, is probably the hardest thing to see....:'(
 

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You said at first you thought stroke or tumor. Tumor? Have you done xrays? You were concerned about her "age group"? Could she, like my GW have narrow artery disease? That will cause stroke and seizures. Rosie had some sort of ultrasound to check her arteries, and had many blood pressure tests done. Keep thinking Jen, what else could it be?
 

Tangle Elf

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I thought at first it was a stroke. The first vet I took her to said she injured her foot (idiot) and the second doctor went through all the possibilities he could think of that could cause neurological symptoms. Everything we thought of has already been tested, has a test pending or doesn't have a conclusive test. After ruling out everything that we could, we're left with stroke, tumor or PDD. She had a set of xrays about two weeks before and right after. Both were clean. They're being sent to the second vet along with all of her previous labs and other records. I'll have to look into the ultrasound. We talked about new testing for cholesterol, but not narrow artery disease. I'm also not sure I've ever seen her blood pressure taken. Did they have to use anesthesia for the ultrasound? An MRI could possibly show a clot or tumor, but either one of them could also be so small that they don't show up. All three possibilities I'm currently left with have a high rate of false negatives.
She hasn't done an xray under anesthesia. We talked about it and I don't remember why we decided not to do it yet. I think we decided to wait on the current tests and records to decide how to proceed. I had completely forgotten that we discussed it until you mentioned xrays.
 

itzmered

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I was reading on what drugs are helpful and ran across this

Amantadine has been extremely useful in treating birds that exhibit central nervous system signs such as seizures and ataxia. Affected birds may show signs of recovery with treatment, but the effects of treatment on viral shedding are currently unknown. Infected birds should be housed separately from any other susceptible birds until tests are available to determine recovery and the effect on viral shedding.
Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD) | Critterology.com
 

Tangle Elf

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I was reading on what drugs are helpful and ran across this
Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD) | Critterology.com
Thank you, I'll have to look into it. I'm not even sure what that drug is. I did read that immunosuppressants have shown some potential. They're researching the combination of immunosuppresents and anti-inflammatories. I'm not sure that would be an option for Judy with her nose issues. What really struck me is: infected birds should be housed separately from any other susceptible birds until tests are available to determine recovery and the effect on viral shedding.

It brings us around to the original topic. How do I keep the other birds safe? They say infected birds should be housed separately, but without good tests, how do you know if they're infected? At this point it seems that the best I can do is to make an educated guess based on some inconclusive symptoms and an unreliable test. This sucks. I don't want to expose Korbin Dallas unnecessarily, but I also don't want to keep them in separate cages unnecessarily.
 

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I thought at first it was a stroke. The first vet I took her to said she injured her foot (idiot) and the second doctor went through all the possibilities he could think of that could cause neurological symptoms. Everything we thought of has already been tested, has a test pending or doesn't have a conclusive test. After ruling out everything that we could, we're left with stroke, tumor or PDD. She had a set of xrays about two weeks before and right after. Both were clean. They're being sent to the second vet along with all of her previous labs and other records. I'll have to look into the ultrasound. We talked about new testing for cholesterol, but not narrow artery disease. I'm also not sure I've ever seen her blood pressure taken. Did they have to use anesthesia for the ultrasound? An MRI could possibly show a clot or tumor, but either one of them could also be so small that they don't show up. All three possibilities I'm currently left with have a high rate of false negatives.
She hasn't done an xray under anesthesia. We talked about it and I don't remember why we decided not to do it yet. I think we decided to wait on the current tests and records to decide how to proceed. I had completely forgotten that we discussed it until you mentioned xrays.
Rosie was not under anesthesia for ultrasound nor was she for her blood pressure tests. She also had high cholesterol. Rosie definitely looked like she injured her foot at first. She had an awful limp and used her beak alot to help her get around. Climbing the sides of the cage she looked pretty normal but I knew better. She used her beak instead of her leg. She had an awful time eating food, almost as if she did not know how to. She would not drink unless I held a cup for her. Ya know the pinned eye la la face they get some times? I call it goo goo face, she was in goo goo face mood almost all the time. It was like a different bird to me. No one else noticed she was not normal other than her walking and perching. Rosie had a stroke, the ER clinic put her on sunshine factor. It was almost two months before she was 90% recovered. A month after that she had another and this time I was there. We started all over again. I put her on DMG and she has been stroke free for almost a year. At times she still has a limp, she has many handicap perches in her cage to aid in balance. She has never relearned to eat corn on the cob... she eats the whole cob if you give it to her. I really believe your baby might have had a stroke.

Look up the DMG for your bird
Vetri-DMG - Antioxidant Supplement for Dogs & Cats - 1800PetMeds

Brand Name
Vetri-DMG Liquid (Vetri-Science)

Active Ingredient(s):
N,N-Dimethylglycine (DMG)

What is this product used for:
Vetri-DMG for use in dogs, cats and birds is recommended to help support proper immune response, cardiovascular and skin health, glucose metabolism and proper nerve and brain functions.


Also, do not worry about the anesthesia. You have to do what you have to do. If you have a good vet, they know what they are doing.
 

Tangle Elf

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Rosie was not under anesthesia for ultrasound nor was she for her blood pressure tests. She also had high cholesterol. Rosie definitely looked like she injured her foot at first. She had an awful limp and used her beak alot to help her get around. Climbing the sides of the cage she looked pretty normal but I knew better. She used her beak instead of her leg. She had an awful time eating food, almost as if she did not know how to. She would not drink unless I held a cup for her. Ya know the pinned eye la la face they get some times? I call it goo goo face, she was in goo goo face mood almost all the time. It was like a different bird to me. No one else noticed she was not normal other than her walking and perching. Rosie had a stroke, the ER clinic put her on sunshine factor. It was almost two months before she was 90% recovered. A month after that she had another and this time I was there. We started all over again. I put her on DMG and she has been stroke free for almost a year. At times she still has a limp, she has many handicap perches in her cage to aid in balance. She has never relearned to eat corn on the cob... she eats the whole cob if you give it to her. I really believe your baby might have had a stroke.

Look up the DMG for your bird
Vetri-DMG - Antioxidant Supplement for Dogs & Cats - 1800PetMeds

Brand Name
Vetri-DMG Liquid (Vetri-Science)
Active Ingredient(s):
N,N-Dimethylglycine (DMG)

What is this product used for:
Vetri-DMG for use in dogs, cats and birds is recommended to help support proper immune response, cardiovascular and skin health, glucose metabolism and proper nerve and brain functions.

Also, do not worry about the anesthesia. You have to do what you have to do. If you have a good vet, they know what they are doing.
I ordered Avi-Immune the day you mentioned DMG. I was only giving it to Judy and giving featheriffic to Judy and Korbin Dallas. I think I'll start giving the avi-immune to Korbin Dallas just in case. His cage is closest to hers. A stroke is her best option at this point, or a tumor that is operable, but I couldn't afford that right now anyway. If she has another incident, we'll do the MRI. An ultrasound might be more affordable though and could give us more information. I'll put it on my list of things to discuss. That list ends up very long by the time I get there :)

Judy's gotten most of her mobility back except for her foot. He isn't able to grip with it at all. She's perching ok putting weight on it. If I still get the double macaw cage I'm thinking about putting alternating shelves like in a critter cage. That way she can get up and down but if she falls, she won't fall far.
 

gibsongrrrl

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did you have judy tested for zinc yet? we've seen a bunch of patients recently with zinc toxicity and it causes similar symptoms. maybe worth checking.
 

Tangle Elf

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did you have judy tested for zinc yet? we've seen a bunch of patients recently with zinc toxicity and it causes similar symptoms. maybe worth checking.
We didn't test for zinc. Both vets said that the neurological effects of zinc would affect the autonomic nervous system. The second doctor was going to do the test, but said that it would show abnormalities on an xray. The xrays were both normal. The second vet hadn't looked at the xray, but will this week. We may test for it the next time she goes in. We didn't discuss it until the end of the visit and there wasn't enough blood drawn to include a zinc test.

When I say that the blood work and xrays have been clean up until this point, it's only the first vet that has reviewed them. The same vet diagnosed a sudden event that left Judy unresponsive for a few minutes and with loss of control over her foot and droppiness of her wings afterward and no pain, swelling or warmth in her foot as a foot injury. I am still hopeful that with a competent vet reviewing the labs, there is information to be learned.
 

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Heavy metal blood tests usually include zinc and lead, so I'm surprised that if they tested for lead, that zinc wasn't automatically part of the test. Zinc poisoning does not have to show up in an x-ray. The only reason heavy metals would show up on an x-ray is if the bird had ingested an actual piece of heavy metal. If they are ingesting very small amounts like licking a zinc toy, it will be in the blood stream. I do agree that typical neurological responses to zinc poisoning are generally shaking but if the bird has enough zinc in its system, you may also see other neurological issues.
 
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Bokkapooh

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But one doesn't want to mistake shaking from heavy metals with natural shaking/shivering when one is controlling their body temp. When my birds are resting with their feathers poofed up, they often shiver, as an example.
 

Tangle Elf

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Heavy metal blood tests usually include zinc and lead, so I'm surprised that if they tested for lead, that zinc wasn't automatically part of the test. Zinc poisoning does not have to show up in an x-ray. The only reason heavy metals would show up on an x-ray is if the bird had ingested an actual piece of heavy metal. If they are ingesting very small amounts like liking a zinc toy, it will be in the blood stream. I do agree that typical neurological responses to zinc poisoning are generally shaking but if the bird has enough zinc in its system, you may also see other neurological issues.
Thank you. We will be running the test, unless we get answers first. It was an additional $80 with the ead test. At the time it wasn't one of the more likely scenarios so we didnt do it. That vet didn't even want to test for lead, I had to really push for it. I'm trying to find the balance between finding answers, still being able to afford treatment and keeping Judy's comfort and safety in mind.
 

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Yes, sometimes you have to be your own advocate. When I couldn't find a reason for Reggie D2's picking, I went in there with a list of things I wanted tested and my vet was hesitant to test for all of them. She did talk me out of one of the tests (it's been so long I can't remember which) but we ran the others even though she didn't feel it was necessary. It gave me peace of mind at least not that we got any answers, just a big vet bill!:) I can feel your pain.
 

Tangle Elf

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Yes, sometimes you have to be your own advocate. When I couldn't find a reason for Reggie D2's picking, I went in there with a list of things I wanted tested and my vet was hesitant to test for all of them. She did talk me out of one of the tests (it's been so long I can't remember which) but we ran the others even though she didn't feel it was necessary. It gave me peace of mind at least not that we got any answers, just a big vet bill!:) I can feel your pain.
Thanks. Hopefully this was just an isolated incident that will end up with a huge vet bill and no further problems. I was reading about WNV today. I need to quit googling. WNV is in my area and does cause neurological problems. It's so rare though. I need answers just to keep me sane.
 

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Thank you. We will be running the test, unless we get answers first. It was an additional $80 with the ead test. At the time it wasn't one of the more likely scenarios so we didnt do it. That vet didn't even want to test for lead, I had to really push for it. I'm trying to find the balance between finding answers, still being able to afford treatment and keeping Judy's comfort and safety in mind.
oh good. I definitely think it would be worth it to eliminate the possibility. zinc does not have to show up on the xray. Weeble's were clean and she has lead and zinc in her. it definitaly causes other neurological symptoms other than just shaking and can cause seizures. I totally understand how expensive all this testing gets, though and it is too bad they just can't test for both in one shot. testing for both before and after treatment was painful. even with an employee discount. i've seen too many birds recently that were originally diagnosed with PDD and ended up having zinc tox to not consider it. especially if there are no undigested food in the droppings or other gastro signs. Judy sure is lucky to have found you:hug8:
 
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